Peckoltia compta (L134) breeding setup

[MarcW]

Hi this is my first fish based post here I've had a read through many of the threads here but please let me know if this is in the wrong place, etc!

I have just set up a breeding tank for Peckoltia compta, I was told they are tough and many people are having spawning success with them by the shop I got them from. I ummed and ahhed for a while and was then told they could almost certainly sex a pair for me, so I came home with two for my 85 litre tank. They are mature (enough to sex at least) and around 8 cm TL.

I will add some pictures of the fish and setup, and more details of the water parameters, etc. when they get settled and come out into the open more. I just had a couple questions to begin with.

Would my chances be improved by getting another female? If so, from the same group, or a different source? So that I would have 1m 2f.

Secondly are dither fish worthwhile? I'm not too bothered by not being able to see much in the tank just wondering if it would be of any benefit to the Peckoltia compta, I'm thinking that they may be best on their own especially with breeding in mind?

[Richard B]

As long as you have sexually mature fish of both sexes there is a chance of breeding regardless of ratios but sometimes a certain ratio works better with certain species - are these W/C or T/B? - i would probably advise one from a different source (if you are increasing group size) as this should help maintain mixed bloodlines.

Dither fish are IMHO not always neccessary but i do prefer it, as long as they are chosen wisely

[MarcW]

Thanks for your help Richard, I was told by the shop that these were wild caught.

For now then, I will stick with the pair I have and try to condition them for a few months and see what happens, if I don't have any luck I may introduce another female or try some dither fish.

[MarcW]

I have performed a water change today and added some Wormer Plus (just as a precaution), the water parameters are as follows.

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 7.6
TDS: 167ppm
Temp: 28 celcius

Does anyone see any issues with the water parameters? I intend to gradually use more RO to reduce the TDS once they are eating well and better conditioned to start a breeding attempt.

Tank 30*12*15 ~85 litres
Fluval 105 external
DIY air powered sponge filter
Powerhead (960l/ph) with venturi and sponge pre-filter
Small bubble curtain
Bogwood
Slate
Black gravel
2 * small clay breeding caves
2 * slightly larger DIY slate caves
15w T8 daylight tube
100w heater

Amazon Frogbit (floating)

2 * 8cm TL Peckoltia compta (L134)

I have only managed so far to get a reasonable picture of one of the fish!

[panaque]

I can't see any problems with your approach / set up. I have recently had breeding success with this species and I will post a spawning report as soon as I have a bit more time on my hands. I have 1 female and 2 males (w/c) by the way and it took more than 2 years for them to get started but it was worth the wait.
Cheers
Frank

[MarcW]

Good to hear that you have had sucess with them, I don't mind a wait, although in a years time my view on waiting may have changed!

A breeding report would be great, I'll keep an eye out for it, I have been reading loads recently including the one in Shane's World, the more ideas the better!

[Richard B]

Good to hear that you have had sucess with them, I don't mind a wait, although in a years time my view on waiting may have changed!

A breeding report would be great, I'll keep an eye out for it, I have been reading loads recently including the one in Shane's World, the more ideas the better!

Try searching some of the posts from Apistomaster (Larry) - he breeds them quite successfully & i think he summised they were seasonal breeders compared to some other L numbers - this has a considerable bearing on planned attempts at spawning

[MarcW]

Thanks for pointing me towards those posts, I've just read every one! They have been very helpful, so far it seems like I'm on the right track, just got to get them into a nice condition and wait! (I hope!)

[apistomaster]

I can't be certain that they are seasonal breeders only that mine have bred 3 consecutive years always beginning within plus or minus 2 weeks of March 1st and ended plus or minus 2 weeks of Sept 1st.
Beware of the pitfalls of inductive reasoning.
I am certain there are others who have had different experiences with L134 than mine.

[Simon86]

Hello

I'd also say that they are seasonal breeders. But mine start in september and end in march
Maybe you were lucky and got a good pair, but I'd buy another pair to increase the chance that they will breed.

Cheers Simon

[ceh]

this fish look like l66 to me

[MatsP]

this fish look like l66 to me

I'm 99.9% certain they are not L066, as I'm pretty sure I've seen the very tank in Pier Aquatics where these came from.

--
Mats

[MarcW]

Hi, I am also certain that these are Peckoltia compta, they did have some L66 a few tanks along but they were very small, the 'lines' were much narrower and wavy, like the pictures in the cat-elog.

Thanks for the information re: the breeding, maybe they breed in 6 month stints starting whenever they feel ready! Could it be that you are in a different hemisphere, or that maybe your house gets warmer in the winter due to heating, as Apistomaster mentioned in some of his posts that his fish room gets very warm in the summer. Just a stab in the dark there only based on an idea which came into my head!

Thanks again for your help.

Edit: Just seen you are based in Switzerland, so ignore that piece about being in another hemisphere!

[MarcW]

This morning I found one of the L134's had died. I have attached some pictures to help determine the cause of death, however I'm pretty sure it starved.

I had the fish for 5 days, and tried feeding it:

Live bloodworm
Frozen bloodworm
Mussel, whole and chopped
Prawn, whole and chopped
JBL Novo tabs
JBL Novo pleco
Tetra prima
Earthworm pellets
Algae wafers
Courgette

Does anyone have any tips on feeding up wild caught fish? I am concerned that there may not have been enough food available due to me worrying about fouling the water.

My priority at the moment is getting the remaining fish to eat then if all seems ok I will look to introduce a few more.

My water parameters are the same as I posted yesterday.

Thanks for your help.

[MatsP]

Oh no. Did you see the fish feed?

It certainly looks a tad skinny - more than I would expect from a 5 day starvation...

--
Mats

[MarcW]

Looking at that photo it does look skinny, from what I remember they looked fine when I brought them, certainly not fat though, a smooth flat belly.

I saw one of them (not sure if it was this one) munching on a whole mussel, but only a few scrapes.

I have put two types of pellet food and a mix of bloodworm, daphnia, brineshrimp, and chopped mussel in the tank now, and will continue adding more food (after removing previous feed) and keep a close eye on water parameters.

The remaining one did stick its head out from the bogwood earlier, but was very skittish when I turned around to take a look. The tank isn't in a loud area or one with much human movement it's in the corner of my study where I sit still working during the day and between about 6pm and 8am I don't go in at all apart from an evening feed around 9pm.

Hopefully it will start eating soon and settle in.

[apistomaster]

There are many different opinions on how to best handle newly acquired wild plecos. I immediately begin a month of treatment in quarantine of all new wild Discus and Plecos I buy using a combination of Hikari PraziPro, 10% flubendazole (premixed in a suspension of water) and metroniadazole. I make regular 50% water changes about every 4 or 5 days and replace the amount of medication I have removed during the water change in order to keep the doses fairly constant.
This has proven effective and safe for me and it dramatically reduced my losses among these wild fish.
There are other ways but this is what I have been doing for the past 6-7 years. Even so, I can't save 100% of the newly imported fish I buy. I don't know anyone who can.

[MarcW]

Hi Larry, thanks for your tips, I did treat these fish with flubendazole, however I'm not sure on the dose (percentage wise) maybe Mats can help me here it was a product he recommended. I add the recommended dose pre mixed with water as a one off it says it is out of the water in 4 days.

I'm not familiar with the other two treatmants you mention though, do they treat for anything specific or are they more of a general treatment?

I will wait and see how the remaining fish does over the weekend, if it starts to eat well and look healthy, I may get a few more at the beginning of next week, put in another dose of kusuri wormer plus and increase the feeding right from the beginning.

Thanks again for your help.

[MatsP]

Well, clearly the 10% is not how much flubendazole is in the water. The 10% is relating to the concentration in the mixture that is added to the water. I don't know what dose Larry uses in his tank.

I would also point out that these fish are not immediate imports (to the best of my knowledge), but fish that has been in the shop for several weeks if not months.

--
Mats

[MarcW]

Oh right, I'm not too familiar with dosing medication. You are correct Mats, I was told they had been in for around 2 months.

[Mongo]

Hi Marc

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Anyway I think it was me who sold you the fish.

You did ask advice, and I did tell you there was no need to medicate.

These are wild fish, and they have been in the shop for at least 2 months, and they are also feeding.

While different people may advocate different things, and if it works for them all well and good.

Larry states how he treats his fish, but can he say had on heart that some of the deaths he has are not attributable to the chemicals he has added,although it may save some fish that may have died.

I have over 100 wild caught hypancistrus and peckoltias, and never had to treat any. These have been bought from shops up and down the country and to my knowledge none have been treated, many of these are happily breeding.

IMO don't treat these fish unless they have symptoms, and the shops are unlikely to sell them if they are ill in any way.

All the best

Mongo

[MarcW]

Hi Mongo,

Thanks for your response, great after sales service! The reason I chose to medicate was they hadn't eaten for 3 days so I thought it may help, as it has done in the past for my L128's.

The good news is that the remaining fish is eating now, the only thing it definatly ate was courgette but at least its eating something! There is always something meatier in the tank too so hopefully it will move onto that soon.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

[MatsP]

Whilst I agree that "unnecessary medication is a bad thing", my feeling (and experience) is that the Kusuri Wormer Plus is very gentle on the fish, but works well against any parasites that the fish may carry. It is based on Flubendazole as far as I understand, and the other ingredient is a "bulk it up" calcium carbonate (so that an average human being can measure out the right amount).

I doubt very much that this medication is cause of problem. More likely is that the fish was stressed from transport and/or perhaps just unlucky. Having said that, I've bought lots of fish from Pier, and only once had problems (which was most likely my fault, as the newly arrived at Pier L183 went into fairly hard water).

--
Mats

[Mongo]

Hi Mats

Whilst I agree that stress is a likely cause, travel and a change of water conditions. Addition of medication, no matter how mild, when there are no symptoms, surely, well IMO lead to further stress, as the water chemistry has changed.

All the best

Mongo

[MatsP]

When using this medication, you use one 0.3ml scoop per (if memory serves) 30 Imp. gallon. Flubendazole itself is a small part, and calcium carbonate is "general hardness". 0.3ml (0.5g) in 30gal = 500mg/135 liter = an increase in GH by 3 ppm. I doubt this will actually affect the fish, if the TDS is currently around 160 ppm.

--
Mats

[MarcW]

If the remaining fish continues to eat well over the weekend I will look at picking a few more up on Monday.

I was thinking of getting 3 to make a total of 4 fish. What ratio should I aim for?

The two I had in mind were:

1M:3F
or
2M:2F

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

EDIT: I have just checked the pack of wormer plus it's contents are 50mg/g Flubendazole, the rest is just calcium carbonate I added 0.2 grams (2/3 of a scoop), the dose is 0.3 grams (one scoop) per 114 litres (30g), so my dose was for 76l in a ~85 litre tank. So hopefully it wouldn't have killed the fish.

[MatsP]

So you added 10mg of Flubendazole to the tank. And essentially 0.2g of Calcium carbonate. Neither should have any notable effect on the fish. I've treated several tanks with several different types of fish with this, and not seen any negative effects (not even dead snails, but that's probably because I don't care about the snails - if I had "pet" snails, they would most likely die!)

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I acquired most of my plecos 6 or 7 years ago from sources which had no qualms about shipping out fish which were in very poor condition. This was when many of the L-number plecos were much cheaper and I was just beginning to get interested in them.
Many of my original sources have gone out of business or are now known as places to avoid.
The current crop of dealers seems to be more interested in taking better care of their fish and their reputations.

Flubendazole has little toxicity to fish. It is not soluble in water. I do not know by what mechanisms it is able to enter a fishes internal organs.
It is effective against different flukes/worms than praziquantel which has effects on flukes/worms that are resistant to flubendazole.
I use the 10% powder in suspension at a dose of 1/2 teaspoon per 10 to 20 US gallons. The exact dosage is not very important since it does not dissolve into the water and it is difficult to harm your fish by using a higher dose. As an aside, it only takes a small pinch of this powder to eliminate Hydra which sometimes under go population explosions if a few are present and one begins to feed the fish in the tank a lot of Artemia nauplii. Hydra are plankton predators but can also eat very small fry like those of Tetras and Bettas while they are still very small.
I don't have all the particulars saved on this particular computer or I would have posted some more specific background information.

Metroniadazole is effective against parasitic protozoan flagellates commonly found in the guts of wild fish.

All wild fish in good health are in balance immunologically with their normal parasites and then they are of little threat.
It is when the fish are stressed after capture through over crowding and making their way through the fish trade distribution system that the fishes are stressed beyond their ability to cope. Most reputable importers and even some exporters begin treating fish for these various parasites so if they are well cared for, the end buyer often will not have any noticeable problems with parasites.
I use this combination of drugs on my new wild Discus and plecos so I know for sure the fish have been treated for the prevailing parasites to establish a base line of my own. Whether or not to treat before or after seeing symptoms is mostly a matter of one's opinions on this matter and what makes you feel better.

[MarcW]

Yesterday I picked up three more to add to the existing one which is still feeding well.

I would like some help determining their sexes. From what I was told by the lady in Pier the three new ones should be 1M and 2F, and I believe the existing one is a male. The reason I ask is that they all seem to have cheek odontodes although only one has clear odontodes on the tail section which is the original fish, I will put a pic up in the next post as I'm only allowed three per post.

I was told that the most reliable way of sexing is the head shape, any tips? If I remember rightly I was told that the males have a more rounded head than the females?

[MarcW]

Not a very helpful picture for determining sex, but this is the original fish which has odontodes all over the tail so from what I've read that makes it a male.