Blunt Nose L46 zebras

[Linus_Cello]

Has anyone had experience keeping blunt nose L46s?

At the Catfish Convention last weekend, one vendor was selling blunt nose L46 zebras. I've always toyed with keeping L46s, but the minimum price of $125 US for captive bred individuals would make me think twice. The price for blunt nose L46s were only $60 (I won't feel as bad if some $60 fish die on me relatively speaking compared to $125). Supposedly, they have this malformity due to some water condition when young, or nutritional defect (though the vendor said that his breeding stock would produce both forms in the same batch); will this lead to signficantly reduced lifespans? My intent is not to breed them, but to get experience raising them. I realize that they should not be bred with regular zebras, or sold to individuals who may try to breed them. Any breeding that would occur would be purely accidental.

(It was great to meet those of you who came to the Catfish Convention last weekend)

[Barbie]

IMO blunt nose zebras are a result of square backed caves and flat glass walls in aquariums, not anything to do with water quality or condition. My first few spawns (where I would take the fry and raise them in clear sided condos) resulted in about 10% snubbies. I also had one male that preferred a flat backed cave that was more prone to having them. My zebras are kept in a large tank, overfiltered with large volume water changes weekly and not overfed. I raise thousands of pleco fry in my house, but have only had this issue with hypancistrus species that I was worried about optimum care of fry and took them from the parents to raise.

I know that they have been raised and bred with other snub nosed individuals to produce all normal fry, also. For awhile, it was insisted it had to be a genetic issue. As my group was purchased over a period of 5 or 6 years from vastly different sources, I found that one hard to swallow, personally.

Good luck with the discussion on this topic ;). It has been known to get a bit hairy. IMO, they are not ideal breeding stock, but we are also going to be working with a very limited gene pool for these fish. If it truly is just a result of an injury, it would make no sense to remove them from breeding. I do not know my opinion is correct, just as noone can be positive it is water related.

Barbie

[claro]

Good luck with the discussion on this topic ;)

Hi,

do not be afraid of discussion about blunt noses, it is not a genetic issue, the cause is very simple. There are so many great aquarium fish breeders here in Czech Republic with extensive experience and they are confident.
There appeared some fish with a blunt nose in my breeding also, that is why I started on this matter of interest.
The explanation is very simple - it is really mechanical damage of the nose, which arises right during hatching, when the fry can not break eggs cover and get out.
This situation occurs frequently in the following cases:
- A young inexperienced male does not help with fry hatching or helps too late
- The induced hatching of eggs without a male
- quality of water is unsuitable, eggs covers are too tough and it is difficult to break out using nose

The nose injuries often occur when Loricaria similima is reared without male (induced rearing). When fry gets male´s help, young fish grow up with beautiful, long noses without any sign of damage.

Sorry for the quality of the translation
Milan

[Barbie]

Your translation was quite easy to understand Milan. Thank you for chiming in!

Barbie

[TwoTankAmin]

This topic has always fascinated me. Haven bred a few 100 zebras from a small colony over the years I can report a very few snubbers- fewer than 5. So I find it hard to believe the cause is genetic. If it is, it is certainly a rarely seen defect. I had also heard this is primarily if not exclusively an Hypancistrus issue.

But here is the thing. I have been spawning common tank bn- regular, albino and long fins- for years. I have pretty much given them up and have a very few left. One of them is a snubnose. In all the years and the 1,000 or so fry I got, this was the first snub-nosed one. I still have it tucked in a growout tank. I have no explanation for what caused this.

As for buying $60 snubbers, if you go into it with open eyes and don't pass them on to anybody not well informed and you do the same with any fry you might get, that seems reasonable to me. However, the one thing I doubt anybody knows is what degree of snubbing crosses the line from being merely a cosmetic issue to one which effects the ability of the fish to eat, stay sucked onto to things when in current or, as a dad, to mouth eggs when tending them.

[Proteus]

I got one myself and out of the 5 orginal ones I purchased few years ago and read somewhere that bulldog wasn't a desired trait and was upset but ended up liking the blunt nose one the best out of the 5 due to its outgoing personality. I would bank on it being an environmental thing.

[Jools]

If it is, it is certainly a rarely seen defect. I had also heard this is primarily if not exclusively an Hypancistrus issue.

I am 100% convinced it is not genetic as I have now seen two examples of Hypancistrus pairs that have, and have not, produced >30% deformed offspring when moved between owners (now that CAN cause "debate"). I have seen this in several genera. Here's a Pterygoplichthys for example:



Now, those fish don't have per egg parental care like the smaller clutch size fishes. So I am not sure about the parental care thing at least not in isolation.

I have a group of 4 deformed Loricaria and, when I get a minute, will attempt to raise some fry to see how they look. For me, it's a water quality issue in terms of the fishes not being able to get out of the egg at the right time. Get that right and not having the male around is less or not an issue.

Jools

[claro]

When is good water quality, is not problem with the hatch without parental (male) care. Most breeders however are not able to replicate parameters of the Amazonian water (very soft < 20 mikroSiemens], so the male during incubation in handy. By the time the fry begin to move in the eggs, male slightly chew cover eggs and help spawn get out.
One breeder, who breeds eggs Loricaria similima without a male care, says, that he must help at the right moment with a glass straw and fry an egg free. Once made it a half day longer, than young loricarie have blunt noses . I have personally good water quality, and I had blunt noses about 2 times and it was always by fry at the first spawning juvenile females. Fry was generally very small and I think that fry had a problem egg cover tear.
A blunt noses occur too often by the breeder, who has harder water about 600 ms, the fish spawning in the hard water, and they transfer the eggs without a male into the water softer 200 micro-Siemens.
Cause blunt nose is clearly in trouble when fry hatching.

There are blunt nose ancistrus for example:

[Champ-BKK]

Thank you for your info Claro.

[racoll]

My intent is not to breed them, but to get experience raising them. I realize that they should not be bred with regular zebras, or sold to individuals who may try to breed them. Any breeding that would occur would be purely accidental.

Like everyone else has already said, I also do not think the cause is genetic or heritable.

If you can get hold of these cheap snubnose H. zebra, I see no reason why you shouldn't breed them.

What exactly causes them I am not sure, but the above explanations seem plausible.