Disinfecting nets and other implements

[jar]

I have recently had some sick fish in one of my tanks which makes me wonder what what to do to make sure disease doesn't spread?

I notice shops use some coloured liquid in a tub to soak their nets in, what is this stuff?

I know some people will say bleach but I have yet to see evidence that decholrinator can remove bleach traces!

[sidguppy]

malachite green or something like that
acriflavine or FMC is also used. in short: old school fish medications can be used for this.

[Bas Pels]

many ols school medications are now banned - for being too agressive, inducing cancer or so

The best solution would be seperate nets for each tank - but this goes too far for mee, I have tanks in several rooms, and each room has its own nets.

Seems nice, doesn't it? But the former garage has 13 tanks, so a few improvements might be needed

I also try to use nets as little as possible - in order to distrub the fishes as little as possible. A nice by-effect is thant the nets dry, and many pathogenes have limited tolerance towards drying

[MatsP]

Generally, if you leave the net to dry out between use in one tank and another, it should be relatively safe.

Bleach may well work, as long as you afterwards clean the net properly, so that you don't transfer bleach from one tank to another.

I'm not sure what the shops use - I tried to google for "aquarium net sterilization", but the hits were poor matches to the subject (aquarium and sterilization appear to occur very frequently).

It is also worth noting that to a large extent, the pathogens that cause illness is already in the water when the fish gets sick - it's just like you and I carry 6 different cold virus in our body at any given time. Most of them time, we don't get a cold from them, but if you have some sort of stress situation (you get too tired, to cold, to hot, get some other illness, etc) then the illness breaks out. Ich is a typical example. There isn't a single fishtank in the world [at least that unless it's currently full of anti-ich medication] that hasn't got ich spores in it. But if the fish have a well working immune system, then the Ich will not take effect.

--
Mats

[racoll]

A friend of mine has had a nasty bacterial infection in one of her tanks, which wiped the stock out.

I recommended she disinfect everything with a bleach solution, but I was hesitant in recommending exactly how.

Has anyone experience of using bleach etc for this?

[MatsP]

Plain bleach in 1:5-10 of bleach:water, I would say.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

A very long time back, I think it was in 1988 I had some problem in an old tank, can't remember what is was. I decided to desinfect it with bleach - half a liter in the 128 liter tank. The mext day the front window had gotten loose.

The tank was 14 years of age - and in that time t14 years was the time the glue was supposed to hold - but still a lot of coincidence.

[mummymonkey]

There isn't a single fishtank in the world [at least that unless it's currently full of anti-ich medication] that hasn't got ich spores in it.

That's a bold statement. Got any proof?

[MatsP]

There isn't a single fishtank in the world [at least that unless it's currently full of anti-ich medication] that hasn't got ich spores in it.

That's a bold statement. Got any proof?

Ok, maybe a bit too bold, but as far as I understand, the protozan's can be found in regular tap-water, so if you either rinse the substrate with water, or use tap-water to fill the tank, it will most likely have ich in it. Water filtered with RO may be free of it. I'm not sure if they air-transport or not.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I have always used bleach. It is cheap and proven effective enough for disinfecting many commercial and academic lab surfaces.
I use anywhere between full strength, as sold solutions, to 1:5 dilutions. The amount is not critical and once the excess has been rinsed, then the residual can be easily neutralized with your favorite water conditioner.

Modern silicone sealants and adhesives are impervious to its effects, bleach will not harm these materials.

I assume any aquatic system that has ever had fish in it will also contain some resting spores of Ichthyothirius, Piscioodinium(Velvet) and Mycobacteria(Fish TB). These organisms are universally present in any natural occurring water in which fish live. It would take extraordinary techniques to avoid introducing them into an aquarium, techniques that are beyond me or my willingness to attempt. Just isn't necessary.

[Carp37]

There isn't a single fishtank in the world [at least that unless it's currently full of anti-ich medication] that hasn't got ich spores in it.

That's a bold statement. Got any proof?

Ok, maybe a bit too bold, but as far as I understand, the protozan's can be found in regular tap-water, so if you either rinse the substrate with water, or use tap-water to fill the tank, it will most likely have ich in it. Water filtered with RO may be free of it. I'm not sure if they air-transport or not.

--
Mats

At least as far as the gist is concerned I agree with Mats- any established tank has ich in it. I've had tanks that haven't had any fish or other livestock or decor introduced for over a year with no sign of sickness, then some stress-inducing occasion occurs and suddenly the tank is full of white-spot. I have, however, found it pretty pointless to treat it in most instances- if the stress goes away then the next generation seems to remain dormant.

[City Bowl]

Personally I use Miltons, a nappy disinfectant for babies,
it's made by one of the conglomerates so I'm sure you'd find it or an equivalent.
I keep my nets in a bucket and put a capful in.
I assume if it get rid of what's in a baby's nappy it should deal with what's in my tanks....

I do wash my nets under a tap before I use them.

[MatsP]

I thought miltons was meant for baby bottles, not nappies, but it's essentialy bleach with less additives, so result should be the same as bleach.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren]

At least as far as the gist is concerned I agree with Mats- any established tank has ich in it.

So it is often said, but I've seen no proof of this. Ich is an obligate parasite of fish, so it can't survive in the absence of fish.

FWIW, I've not had a single case of Ich in 30 years, and I've certainly stressed fish, subjected them to low temperatures etc.

[City Bowl]

I thought miltons was meant for baby bottles, not nappies, but it's essentialy bleach with less additives, so result should be the same as bleach.

--
Mats

...Yes perhaps it is, you do have a point I don't have much experience with babies that actually ware nappies!

[apistomaster]

At least as far as the gist is concerned I agree with Mats- any established tank has ich in it.

So it is often said, but I've seen no proof of this. Ich is an obligate parasite of fish, so it can't survive in the absence of fish.

FWIW, I've not had a single case of Ich in 30 years, and I've certainly stressed fish, subjected them to low temperatures etc.

That may be true Mike, but the fish room is not a laboratory and new fish and the most minor slip in maintaining 100% effective isolation techniques and is very easy to make that one mistake where you will meet up with Ich someday.
I happen to think the organism has the ability to survive in a dormant state longer than literature reports. You are more lucky than anything else that you have never had to deal with an Ich outbreak. It took me 40 years before I ever had to contend with a Hydra outbreak. Fortunately now, flubendazole powder in a small dose repeated a few time over 10 days has proven an easy way to eliminate them. Just saying, Stuff happens.

[mummymonkey]

... as far as I understand, the protozan's can be found in regular tap-water, so if you either rinse the substrate with water, or use tap-water to fill the tank, it will most likely have ich in it. Water filtered with RO may be free of it. I'm not sure if they air-transport or not.

I think somebody's been pulling your leg. Ich is a relatively large organism that's easily dealt with by filtering or disinfecting. The chances of any arriving in your tap water are remote. The chances of any arriving through your window are remoter still.

[Mike_Noren]

That may be true Mike, but the fish room is not a laboratory and new fish and the most minor slip in maintaining 100% effective isolation techniques and is very easy to make that one mistake where you will meet up with Ich someday.

Well, I have met it, but that was 30 years ago.
After that I've had a couple of run-ins with Chilodonella and Costia, and assorted bacterial diseases, but never Ich. It may be that Ich requires a larger minimum host population size to be able to persist, or it may be that it, being a fairly large organism with free-swimming adults in the 0.5 - 1 mm range, is removed by my very strong filtration. Whatever the reason I'd bet good money Ich isn't hiding in any of my aquaria.

In my googling for information on the ich lifecycle I found this...
ftp://ftp.fao.org/FI/CDrom/FAO_Training ... 709e15.htm
...which is partly relevant to this thread in that it discusses various desinfectants and their use in aquaculture.

[Bas Pels]

actually, the common knowledge 'itch will always stay in a tank' has always surprised me

The spores have a limited lifespan - 72 hrs, if I remember correctly. Than they die, or infect a fish. Infected fish react with the feared white spots of approximately 1 mm.

If my fish don't show the spots, they are not infected, and if they are not infected, how can itch survive

now this is discussed, could anyone tell me where I went wrong?

[Mike_Noren]

actually, the common knowledge 'itch will always stay in a tank' has always surprised me

The spores have a limited lifespan - 72 hrs, if I remember correctly. Than they die, or infect a fish. Infected fish react with the feared white spots of approximately 1 mm.

If my fish don't show the spots, they are not infected, and if they are not infected, how can itch survive

now this is discussed, could anyone tell me where I went wrong?

As far as I can tell you're correct. This link:
http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuer ... 35.png.php
suggests that Ich does not have any resting stage which could persist undetected for more than a few days.

I also found an interesting note in a fish disease book that adult free-swimming Ich (stage 3 in the picture in the above link) do not survive salinities above 1 ppt, which suggests an easy way of disrupting the life cycle.

[bronzefry]

I use one drop per one gallon. I just have to read the label carefully to make sure it doesn't have any perfumes or dyes in it, or if it's a gel. For some reason, everybody likes these sort of things. I use it to clean out a tank that someone's given me and I'm not exactly sure where it's been or what's been in it. If you get really worried about the bleach, use an anti-chloramine type thing after. Although, I really don't need to use the bleach....the tap water already smells like bleach.
Amanda

[Atlantis Child]

I notice shops use some coloured liquid in a tub to soak their nets in, what is this stuff?

If it's blue, it could be Methylene Blue. I've use it at the pet store where I work for that purpose. Diluted with lotsa water. Doesn't take much to work. Enough to make the water blue, but no harm having much more when no fish present.

We've also used it in tanks to kill ich, and as a preventative in our betta water for fungal, ich, and bacterial infections.

Good to use, just don't get it on anything you care about, as it will stain. On the hands too, and can be an irritant, esp. no good in cuts. Not really toxic or anything, but I definately suggest gloves.



Dunno about bleach, but we also use diluted white vinagar for cleaning betta containers and gravel, then rinse. Seems to work well and get rid of any ammonia smell.


As far as I know, Ich cists can survive in the water for up to three days without a host. So treat 4 days after you notice it is gone off the fish or they'll get reinfected.


- Atlantis Child

[MatsP]

Re: Ich (I did consider splitting this topic, but it's hard work).

It appears that I'm absolutely wrong. Thanks for questioning my understanding of things. I CLEARLY remember reading that "ich is always present" - ok so it was on the Internet, so it should be doubted. However, how come that if you haven't added any new fish to a tank for weeks or months, and suddenly Ich breaks out [due to, in my case, an unfortunate drop in temperature and relatively sensitive fish]? If they only survive 72 hours or whatever without a host, they must obviously be resident [but not broken out into "proper" whitespot] in the host.

--
Mats

[racoll]

how come that if you haven't added any new fish to a tank for weeks or months, and suddenly Ich breaks out

I think they "tick over" at a very low level in the tank. Sometimes I see a single white ich spot on a fish, or fish flashes repeatedly. I worry that I'm about to get an ich outbreak, but nothing comes of it...

[MatsP]

how come that if you haven't added any new fish to a tank for weeks or months, and suddenly Ich breaks out

I think they "tick over" at a very low level in the tank. Sometimes I see a single white ich spot on a fish, or fish flashes repeatedly. I worry that I'm about to get an ich outbreak, but nothing comes of it...

Yes, I'd agree with that - and of course, we scratch ourselves now and again. Doesn't mean we have lice or other skin parasites to a level requiring medication.

--
Mats

[Jackster]

I use bleach on everything that touches my fish tank water. Some items get bleached per
use, while others get a monthly bleaching. I keep all "clean water" buckets and tools
seperated from "dirty water" buckets and tools. Any bucket or tool is never used in
one tank and then used in another without being sterilized first. I do occasionally
use ammonium chloride or "Net Dip" as it's commonly called as well.

I personally believe that ich in NOT ever-present. The few times I've had problems
with parasites, they came in with new arrivals. I have also received small Ancistrus
from breeders which came in extremely cold (60°F, 15°C) and ich never appeared
on them. Many fishkeepers mix fish bought from discount pet stores and internet
sales in the same tank also flipping fish from tank to tank within their own systems
which can spread ich everywhere which may be why some claim it's ever-presence.
Just putting your hand in one tank and then in another can spread ich so one has
to be very aware of what your doing especially at feeding time.

I use .2% salt concentation for 15 days in any tank I suspect of having external parasites.
If the outbreak is killing fish rapidly, then I use potassium permanganate first, then salt.
I feel this completely kills ich and unless tanks are otherwise re-contaminated, the ich
remains eliminated. I would not dismiss, however, that both tap water and simply open
windows allowing wind to blow into a fishroom, may be possible sources for the introduction
of ich. This may further add to the theory of ever-presence but I think that ich is just so
contageous and hardy that many times it's not completely eliminated and it's reappearance
is then deemed as ever-presence.

[racoll]

Jackster, what concentration of bleach are you using?

The 1:5 solution already mentioned seems a bit strong to be.

To disinfect a standard 90 litre tank, you would need 18 litres of bleach........

[racoll]

Says here the WHO* recommend "1:100 bleach solution is used to disinfect: surfaces, medical equipment, bedding, reusable protective clothing..." against avian influenza.

This sounds like a more realistic strength, but I'm sure there is a lot more info on this out there....

* and before anyone says it, yes, I mean the WHO, not The Who

"talking 'bout my sterilisation..."

Permission to shoot me for that one!

[Jackster]

I use about one ounce (30 ml) to 5 gallons (3.785 l) of water as a standard rule.
Nets can be eaten away by too much bleach concentration so use a little less
and only soak the nets for 20 minutes. Anything that comes in contact with
new arrivals, especially wild fish, usually gets about double that concentration
so 2 ounces (60 ml) per 5 gallons (3.785 l). I rinse everything after bleaching
and let the items dry completely, then rinse again. I do occasionally use
dechlorinator, if I don't have time to wait for items to dry. It's my understanding
that off gasing from bleach is somewhat dangerous to humans so I would suggest
using it in a well ventilated seperate room or outside if possible.

[Atlantis Child]

Just putting your hand in one tank and then in another can spread ich so one has
to be very aware of what your doing especially at feeding time.

I actually had a sick tank, then a betta in my healthy tank got ich. He was the only one. Moved him to a breeder net in the other tank, but when he got worse I treated him a bare 5 gallon. He was covered, I mean really covered in Ich. Had hope he'd make it, but suspected it was impossible.

He did make it though, even through fin rot right after. Love that fish, and is an inspiration. I believe a lot in giving fish a chance to get better before culling them for being sick.

Point in all that is, that is yes, it is very, very transferable. One fish with a spot of Ich can infect your tank and kill half your tank, even with lots of care and treatment. My story. Quarintine from now on for some good days before adding new fish. Even if they look healthy.


- Atlantis Child