Can you help me ID my mystery Catfish?

adela · Post by **adela** » 20 Apr 2003, 05:03

Went to buy some black Molly's at the pet store, and they had this guy in the tank with them. The clerk told me he was a "black shark", that he would live happily with my molly's, that he would live happily as the only one of his species in the tank, that he was at his max size, and that he was a bottom feeder.

Stupid me, I believed him, and bought the little guy (who is adorable).

Now I realize that what I have is for sure not a "black shark". Can anyone help? Right now he is in a 20 gallon planted tank with one black tetra (the last of a large group, and I don't want any more ... ) and some black molly's. He ate some dried blood worms off of the surface today. He is also nocturnal - seems to sleep vertically (see pics) in the daytime propped up by some plants. But once the lights go off in the tank, he swims around like crazy, and pushes the molly's around a bit.

I've looked through A LOT of pics on planetcatfish and I can't find one that matches. I want to find the CORRECT species name for him so that I can look after him properly, put him in a bigger tank if I need to, etc etc. I'm fairly certain he's a catfish, as he has the whiskers (two on each side) although they are fairly short (which I now realise is a bad sign). Also, the molly's like a bit of salt in the water to prevent ick infestations, and I want to know if that's safe for this little guy or if I should seperate the tanks ...

thanks in advance!

Adela

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 20 Apr 2003, 05:08

Dont know if its just me but the links didnt work

adela · Post by **adela** » 20 Apr 2003, 05:27

Sorry that was my inexperience showing ...

Pics are now in the post.

Adela

König Löwe · Post by **König Löwe** » 20 Apr 2003, 08:32

That looks more like a black labeo to me, which is not a catfish. I dont know wheter the genus is Labeo or Epalzeorynchus, but I'm sure someone else can shed some more light on this.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 20 Apr 2003, 09:17

Good call! I totally agree, it does indeed look like it could be a young Labeo chrysophekadion . If that's indeed what is, be carefull adela. They can get agressive when older, and can hit 18 to 24 inches! Theyse guys get WAY bigger than their cousins Labeo bicolor (Red Tail Black Shark) which only reach 4 to 6 inches. You'll definately have to look into a much bigger thank to keep it. I would recomend taking it back to you LFS and ask for your money back, as they gave you some serious misinformation from the looks of it.

König Löwe wrote:That looks more like a black labeo to me, which is not a catfish. I dont know wheter the genus is Labeo or Epalzeorynchus, but I'm sure someone else can shed some more light on this.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 20 Apr 2003, 10:13

Actually it isn't Labeo, but Morulius chrysophekadion.
This is a nearly adult specimen.

Fascinating fish; when young they're either dark grey, or jet black, and alternate btween these two, when maturing. If they reach a certain size, they get more and more beautiful; see the pic! Reddish brown, with red metallic spots on every scale.
Unfortunately, like it's African cousins (the true Labeo species) it's a very territorial fish, and like said already, it's a big one! 45-60 cm can be reached.....
According to most sources, it doesn't bother fishes that are much smaller, so keepinghim with loads of smaller fish in a big tank is certainly possible; fishes about it's own size can be harassed pretty bad, though.

FWIW:
Asian species that once were Labeo are now called Epalzeorhynchus (like E bicolor, E frenatus etc)
Asian species that once were Epalzeorhynchus are now called Crossocheilus (like C kallopterus and C siamensis)
Morulius still is Morulius (although very close to Labeo)
All remaining Labeo species are African fish, like Labeo cylindricus from Tanganyika and Malawi

Ben · Post by **Ben** » 20 Apr 2003, 10:22

SG_Eurystomus wrote:Actually it isn't Labeo, but Morulius chrysophekadion.
This is a nearly adult specimen.

ahhh, you're so right! I had the two confused. I seem to get turned upside down when it comes to Cyprinids for some reason

Post by **Silurus** » 20 Apr 2003, 11:35

Asian species that once were Labeo are now called Epalzeorhynchus (like E bicolor, E frenatus etc)
Asian species that once were Epalzeorhynchus are now called Crossocheilus (like C kallopterus and C siamensis)
Morulius still is Morulius (although very close to Labeo)
All remaining Labeo species are African fish, like Labeo cylindricus from Tanganyika and Malawi

Not quite right. Labeoin systematics is still a mess, but some ichthyologists (e.g. Kottelat) continue to place Morulius chrysophekadion in Labeo.
Then there is Labeo rohita, an Indian species which is suspected to belong to its own genus, Rohita rohita. Ther are also a whole bunch of Indian (and Sri Lankan) species such as L. angra, L. calbasu, L. dyocheilus, L. fisheri and L. pangusia whose placement is unknown.
FWIW, there are two species in what was previously considered L. chrysophekadion: L. barbatulus and L. chrysophekadion. SG's picture shows L. barbatulus, not L. chrysophekadion.

adela · Post by **adela** » 20 Apr 2003, 14:57

Yes, all of those pics look exactly like him. I'm not sure how you guys are able to tell the difference! Congratulations!

Hmmm this leaves me with a real problem. How big a tank do I need to keep a 45-60 cm fish like this? We have plans next year to invest in a BIG tank, but how big do I need to go to keep this guy healthy?

Adela

Post by **Silurus** » 20 Apr 2003, 15:02

If you're keeping it all by itself, I would say you'd need a minimum tank size of 75 gallons (this is the absolute minimum and a larger tank is highly recommended).

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 20 Apr 2003, 17:03

Silurus, what's the difference between barbatulus and chrysophekadion?
AFAIK the black ones turn in these brownish, red spotted ones, but I may be wrong....

Everytime I think I'm up to the latest version of latin names, it gets changed again.....confusing!

Post by **Silurus** » 20 Apr 2003, 18:25

Labeo barbatulus adults are brown (sometimes black), and the dorsal fin has a deeply concave margin (like in the photo). Labeo chrysophekadion is a more greyish black, and the dorsal fin margin is either straight or very weakly concave (never as deeply concave as in the photo).
It is also possible that L. barbatulus grows to only half the size of L. chrysophekadion (300 mm vs. 600 mm SL).

adela · Post by **adela** » 21 Apr 2003, 06:36

Well than I am in luck :S

The dorsal fin of this guy does not have the deeply concave pattern seen in the above pic, so it seems Labeo chrysophekadion is the right answer, and some google searches have suggested this guy is commercially available.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your help. Does anyone have any idea as to how quickly they grow? Discussed it with my boyfriend, and as we're planning to invest in a much much larger tank sometime next year anyway, this may be the best incentive to do it a little earlier. I just want to know if I should buy the tank now now now, or wait afew months and see how he grows ...

Adela

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 21 Apr 2003, 10:12

300mm is very tempting.....
There's a nice, big fat Morulius (or Labeo) in a good LFS near me. When he arrived he was black, and I ignored him (600mm adult length, non-catfish, non-Tanganyikan).
He's there for months now, steadily growing, turning into a replica of the pic I ripped from google, including this concave dorsal!

And I got a 125G with moderately nasty veggo-fish, that are probably up to the challenge.....

not to mention the fact that I've been hunting for Labeo cylindricus for ages, but these guys are rare as hens' teeth in the LFS! He would make a fairly nice 'substitute' Afro-Labeo.......

Post by **Silurus** » 21 Apr 2003, 11:42

I used the word possible for L. barbatulus reaching only half the size of L. chrysophekadion because no one knows the full size of this species yet.
Kottelat's Fishes of Laos lists the species as reaching "up to at least 300 mm SL".

Post by **Dinyar** » 21 Apr 2003, 15:23

SG_Eurystomus wrote:And I got a 125G with moderately nasty veggo-fish, that are probably up to the challenge.....

not to mention the fact that I've been hunting for Labeo cylindricus for ages, but these guys are rare as hens' teeth in the LFS! He would make a fairly nice 'substitute' Afro-Labeo.......

Why would you want Labeo cylindricus, Sid? They are from the Congo, not from Lake Tanganyika, so will break the Tang biotope of yoour 125 gallon; they are a pretty dull gun metal grey color; and like most Labeo, they get petty big.

The fish that used to be called L. variegatus and is now something like L. cyclorhyncos is one of the more colorful and interesting Congo Labeo, IMO.

Both are readily available online in the US, but I'm going to heed the sage advice of my friend Sid Guppy and not stuff more rowdy big fish in my tanks on impulse!

Dinyar

Post by **Silurus** » 21 Apr 2003, 15:36

They are from the Congo, not from Lake Tanganyika

Not right. Labeo cylindricus is also found in Lake Tanganyika. Not common, but it's there. It's apparently most common in the Zambezi River drainage, just south of the lake.
At 40 cm SL, probably the smallest Labeo species of the lake.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 21 Apr 2003, 19:26

My point exactly; they ARE from Lake Tang (I've got underwaterfootage ripped from the internet.).
The Lake Tang variety (it's indeed also indigenous in many rivers, and Lake Malawi too) is one of the 'smaller' and has a fairly conspicious black stripe, making it look like a giant SAE.

It's only moderately nasty as African labeo's go; often dwelling in pairs or small groups.

Unfortunately rarely imported; though not too rare in the lake, near rivermouths and swamps.
Due to the popularity of the cichlids, syno's and spiny eels, the other fishspecies that can be kept from the lake are very seldom imported.....
and I'm not hinting at 3 foot long Barbs, Tigerfish or giant Heterobranchus, but aiming at L cylindricus, Chrysichthys sianenna, Barilius (Rayamas sp), Aplocheilichthys pumilus, Alestopetersius etc.