pictus vs other bottom dwellers

zenkatydid · Post by **zenkatydid** » 25 Nov 2005, 02:49

i am (still) planning out a 4ft, 48g/180L tank. i really want some pictus cats, but am worried about their community-ness (or lack thereof).

how likely are they to take a chunk out of a peaceful fish that's the same size as them?

i would like the bottom dwellers for the tank to be: 3 pictus, 3 s. nigriventris, 3 yoyo loaches and 1 bn, but they will all be sharing territory. will they be ok together? i will also be having some mid-top dwellers, possibly angels, gouramis or bolivian rams.

i'm willing to cut out the s. nigriventris if necessary, but would like to keep if at all possible. i would be happy to reduce numbers of the pictus and s. nigriventris, but as far as i'm aware they would prefer more, is that right?

what do you think?

katy

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Nov 2005, 03:34

how likely are they to take a chunk out of a peaceful fish that's the same size as them?

Highly unlikely

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Nov 2005, 11:23

Katy,

I wouldn't worry about the Pictus being agressive towards other species. They aren't particularly violent - sure, they are wonderfully oppurtunistic predators, they will pounce on things that fit in their mouth, but I've kept fully-grown (about 15cm/6") pictus with small bristlenose juveniles, and no problem.

Obviously, hiding spaces for everyone is important, as they tend to fight over space to hide every now and again...

As for the numbers of each, I would think that you can keep those numbers. I don't know how big Yoyo loaches grow, that would be the only concern - there are several loaches that grow up to about a foot long and would be far too big for the tank you've got in mind. I beleive in buying fish that goes in a tank you already have, since life often throws a wobbly when you least expect it, and that big new tank becomes just a dream, because something else turned up that you had to spend money on - whether that is repairs to your car you need for work, loss of job, new children or something else happening to your life... [I'm NOT saying any of this WILL happen to you, but adding a few fish outgrowing your tank capacity isn't going to make any of the above any more bearable, should it happen.]

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 26 Nov 2005, 23:12

zenkatydid wrote: i will also be having some mid-top dwellers, possibly angels, gouramis or bolivian rams.

Mind you, bolivian rams tend to be bottom orientated as well.

zenkatydid wrote: i'm willing to cut out the s. nigriventris if necessary, but would like to keep if at all possible. i would be happy to reduce numbers of the pictus and s. nigriventris, but as far as i'm aware they would prefer more, is that right?

Yes they would, and so do the loaches. You might consider to drop one species and enlarge the other two species to 5 fish each. That way they feel more comfortable and behave as such, which you will most certainly enjoy.

zenkatydid · Post by **zenkatydid** » 27 Nov 2005, 02:51

yoyo loaches only grow to about 6", i'm safe ;) i completely agree with only getting fish that suit the tank they're in - which is why i am (much to my chagrin) not getting clown loaches. or a big pleco *drools*

i'm not sure my tank would be big enough to give 5 pictuses enough territory, but i had considered increasing my yoyo group.

i'm still confused about the pictus group dynamic. they prefer the company of their own species, the more the merrier, and yet they're territorial and will fight over hiding places? that doesn't make any sense. or is it a kind of love/hate thing?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 27 Nov 2005, 10:49

zenkatydid wrote:i'm still confused about the pictus group dynamic. they prefer the company of their own species, the more the merrier, and yet they're territorial and will fight over hiding places? that doesn't make any sense. or is it a kind of love/hate thing?

I can imagine that you think it doesn't make sense, and yes, it is pretty complex. If I may simplify, it comes to this: when you have fish that need company of their own kind but are known to be more or less aggressive towards eachother, you have to increase the group. Thus, the aggression can - and will - spread. If you only have two, one is going to bully the other time after time, which is going to result in one large, well fed and dominant fish, while the other remains small, thin and pathetic. In most cases this will go on until the latter dies. In my view three are not enough also, because things will happen according to the same scenario: one gets bullied all the time, dies, and then there are just two left....
The fish in my avatar (Exodon paradoxus; though not a catfish) is a great example. Take one, and it will chase any other fish in the tank. Take three, and they will chase eachother till there's just one left. Take 14, and they will harrass eachother without casualties.
I'm not suggesting you should take 14 P.pictus

Good luck with your decisions!

zenkatydid · Post by **zenkatydid** » 28 Nov 2005, 06:56

ohhh, i don't know what to do

i really want some pictus, but to keep them successfully they seem to need to have a BUNCH in a big species tank. maybe my community idea just won't work for them

should i abandon this and just go with the s. nigriventris?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 28 Nov 2005, 13:09

Sorry, I can't decide for you. But in my view there's nothing wrong with a group of 5 Synos and a group of 5 loaches. In that case you'll also have fish that stay smaller than the Pimelodus. But it's difficult, I know.
Again, good luck.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Nov 2005, 13:21

Ok, so let's get one thing quite clear:
Pictus cats will go perfectly in a community scenario. I have five of them - it used to be six, but one of the mid-sized ones died several months ago.

Not sure about the cause, but almost certainly it wasn't malnutrition - it died when I was living in one house and keeping my tank in the old house we're still in the process of selling(

), and it may have had a problem due to trying to eat a whole (or big chunk of) Hikari algae wafer at once, but I'm only guessing. I found it a couple of days later and did an immediate water change, but didn't disect the fish.

They won't go well in a community tank with small fish, particularly not small tetras.

Now, the problem with your setup is that you've got a fairly small bottom area and want to keep several, fairly large, bottom dwellers.

In the end, however, it's your decision to compromise between the several fish that you really want all of, but you can't keep the numbers that you'd like of all the fish you'd like. All fish-keepers with very few exceptions go through this process once in a while...

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 28 Nov 2005, 15:11

MatsP wrote: Now, the problem with your setup is that you've got a fairly small bottom area and want to keep several, fairly large, bottom dwellers.

The Synodontis nigriventris is not strictly bottom orientated; it will use all water layers.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Nov 2005, 15:26

Marc van Arc wrote:
MatsP wrote: Now, the problem with your setup is that you've got a fairly small bottom area and want to keep several, fairly large, bottom dwellers.
The Synodontis nigriventris is not strictly bottom orientated; it will use all water layers.

Agreed. Loaches and Rams would be the ones mostly competing for space at the bottom. Of course, Rams are also not very large, but they do like their bottom space for foraging.

--
Mats

zenkatydid · Post by **zenkatydid** » 29 Nov 2005, 09:20

thanks for all your help, guys. i'm going to have to think on this some more before i commit to anything.

i saw a huge syno at the lfs, about 20cm, it looked like a featherfin to me, but i'm no expert. it was FAT! not lithe and slender like the little ones. they also had a eeltail cats about the same size, and they were pretty chunky as well.

do the nigriventris get as chunky as that? does anyone have any pics of an adult?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Nov 2005, 11:07

THere's a picture of an adult in the Cat-eLog: - Fourth picture is the one I'm thinking of.

Of course, these don't grow quite as big, about 4-5" total length, compared to some of the other Syno's.

--
Mats

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:10

Katy,

I'm curious if you have entertained the idea of smaller loaches?

Please note that this is a suggestion. This could buy you some more "space" in your tank. I was thinking of the angel botia (botia kubotai) which grows to about 4" long.

Is this planned to be a planted tank? Are you anticipating the loaches for snail removal? IME the Yoyo loaches were not "very good snail controllers" while the angel botias are.

I also do not see a problem with the space, but I do not know alot about the syno. species other than like most synos it swims upsidedown. I have the following in a 29 gallon tank and there appears to be no issues:

Synodontus Eupterus (1)
Bristlenose (albino mail and brown male)(2)
clown plecos (2)
Corydoras barbaratus (bearded cory)(5)
pictus (3)
angel botia (3)

1 gold gourami
1 guppy

The tank is planted and I have plenty of caves etc. Make sure you get some cork wood for the syno to hide under. Cichlid caves seem to work best along with driftwood.

And yes it is a cool water tank..

I hope this is helpful information, and I am hopeful that you can figure out what works best for you - please note that these were suggestions based on my experiences.

Thanks,

Scott

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:11

Katy,

I'm curious if you have entertained the idea of smaller loaches?

Please note that this is a suggestion. This could buy you some more "space" in your tank. I was thinking of the angel botia (botia kubotai) which grows to about 4" long.

Is this planned to be a planted tank? Are you anticipating the loaches for snail removal? IME the Yoyo loaches were not "very good snail controllers" while the angel botias are.

I also do not see a problem with the space, but I do not know alot about the syno. species other than like most synos it swims upsidedown. I have the following in a 29 gallon tank and there appears to be no issues:

Synodontus Eupterus (1)
Bristlenose (albino mail and brown male)(2)
clown plecos (2)
Corydoras barbaratus (bearded cory)(5)
pictus (3)
angel botia (3)

1 gold gourami
1 guppy

The tank is planted and I have plenty of caves etc. Make sure you get some cork wood for the syno to hide under. Cichlid caves seem to work best along with driftwood.

And yes it is a cool water tank..

I hope this is helpful information, and I am hopeful that you can figure out what works best for you - please note that these were suggestions based on my experiences.

Thanks,

Scott

zenkatydid · Post by **zenkatydid** » 30 Nov 2005, 07:57

unfortnately we have a very limited range of loaches available in australia. prior to a few months ago, it was only clown and khulii. just recently they've legalised yoyo and dwarf loaches. i considered the dwarf loaches, but they seem to be a bit more sensitive, shy and prefer a quieter environment than mine will be with the pictus. yoy's seem to be the best choice. i'm not fussed with snail control - i don't have a problem with them living in my tank, and if its gets out of control i can always pick them out ;)

thanks for you input!

after some more thought, and some looking around at adult pics of both pictus and nigriventris, i've decided to cut out the latter. they seem to fade with age, and though i love their colouration while young, as adults i prefer the pictus. for behaviour, the pictus win outright. i love feisty fish

so, i'm increasing to 4 yoyos and 4 pictus, and hopefully that will maintain a happy group of both.

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 02 Dec 2005, 00:33

And then you'll become like the rest of us ...a victim of MTS - multiple tank syndrome!

Seriously though - good luck!

Scott

pictus vs other bottom dwellers

pictus vs other bottom dwellers

Re: pictus vs other bottom dwellers