Zebra export discussion from the for sale thread

Dukerider · Post by **Dukerider** » 18 May 2006, 10:16

Dukerider,

Just a passing thought, what's the difference between a dye injected cory and a dye injected zebra pl*co? Or a disco glass fish or red parrot c*****d? Would you complain about the former as energetically? Of course you would, I think?

Hi Jools,

In short, nothing. I don't see any difference between injecting dye in a zebra pleco, disco glass fish or any other fish. There's enough variation within the fish community to keep me entertained for far more years than I will ever be able to keep fish for....so I don't see any need to dye fish regardless of it's aesthetics or popularity.
The only reason I commented on the zebra's is I breed them, so I was naturally drawn to this thread rather than say a thread on dyed glass fish...but that doesn't mean I still don't feel the same way about them.

This is now getting a bit far fetched, but say, for arguments sake, some one "crossed" a zebra pl*co with a common and you got a colourful fish that was really hardy and laid 10,000 eggs at a time. Zebra pl*co market crashes, pressure on wild populations is eased?

Which is the greater good or evil?

First and foremost, I have no problem with breeders crossing species for experimentation. I would not however, if I was in that position release them to the general public so for me that kills your question right there. As I said earlier I think there are plenty enough fish out there naturally to keep everyone interested without having to create new strains and variations.
In response to your question though...I'm not sure there's any scenario which I can think of which would result in a crash of the zebra pleco market. It's such a sought after fish that there will always be a higher demand than supply. Even if a new cross appeared on the market which matched your description, it may satisfy the average fish keeper, however there's enough purist fishkeepers out there to keep it in high demand for along time to come. The only thing which could help reduce the pressure on the zebra pleco is if other new just as striking pleco's where discovered, which would help spread the load as it were.

Dukerider.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 18 May 2006, 14:34

Darn Keyboard didn't say what I meant it to. The fish would have a few signs more then likely flaws, or simply more agressive then normal for that sp. The fact that it would be easy to tell is more of the fact who your getting them from. Are they a breeder, or importer? are they zebras 1" or 3"? I'd imagine an importer that was selling 3" zebras didn't breed them, and a Breeder with 1" didn't import them.

When your talking about Z's I don't think F(1) would make the price go down. I may be wrong however I think your buying more of the Fish then you are the Wild. I just couldn't see anyone saying they are wild if they weren't.

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 18 May 2006, 17:52

MatsP wrote:... and if you look after both the parents properly, they will spawn once a month or so. H. zebra, you'd be lucky to get 15 fry in a spawn, and they may, if you're really good to them, spawn twice in the same year....

Umm ... actually they spawn every 3 weeks, some times 4 weeks and they do spawn more than twice a year. Mine spawn 4 times since Feb. already. I get around 15 eggs the first time and around 7 each afterward. Unfortunately, my first 2 brood all died of starvation. Don't know about my other two brood, but it don't look too good either.

As for IDing Wild caught with F1. I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference. Just sexing them alone is already difficult.

Also, even with the bam, what exactly was done to make sure the Zebras have a chance to recopperate their numbers? For all you know, another sp pleco could've out compete the zebras for food and push the zebras to extinction. Just because the bam was on doesn't really mean the zebras will recoperate.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 18 May 2006, 18:02

For all you know, another sp pl*co could've out compete the zebras for food and push the zebras to extinction. Just because the bam was on doesn't really mean the zebras will recoperate.

I'm sorry, but this kind of attitude really irritates me.

People will think up any excuse in order to shift any responsibility away from their own activities.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 18 May 2006, 18:09

Ban! Like Bam only less seasoning.

There isn't really anything outside of not farming them that anyone could do. because of the flooding there is not place where someone could set up a place for reintroducing them back into the wild.

Dukerider · Post by **Dukerider** » 18 May 2006, 18:13

racoll wrote:
For all you know, another sp pl*co could've out compete the zebras for food and push the zebras to extinction. Just because the bam was on doesn't really mean the zebras will recoperate.
I'm sorry, but this kind of attitude really irritates me.

People will think up any excuse in order to shift any responsibility away from their own activities.

I don't think he is. I think he's just stating that there maybe other factors involved which have also played a part in the zebra's low numbers. I don't think this is or will be the case at any point however we have no proof either way. Point is, no surveys have been carried out of any kind so it's all guess work from where we're standing.

Personally I believe it's down to us and us only...as usual.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 18 May 2006, 18:20

Yeah. It's easier to ban irrigation because a squa is in danger in the US then to get some counts on fish. I would like to know the exact situation and cause. It really comes down to the dollar sign. The biggest question is what sp were effected by the dam. If the dam was causing problems the we would see many fish being less and less. Lots of topics that need to be raised. We will have our ansewr in 3 years. If the numbers have increased to a safe level then we will see them being exported again. If not then it's going to lay down a lot more questions and more waiting. I would still say to venture the domestic breeding right now will save us in the years to come. Lets face it, we are the biggest preditors in the world. We kill for fun.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 18 May 2006, 22:41

matsP said "..more susceptible to over-fishing than for example cicklids in the wild." Good point and l agree.

l have Hyp. Inspectors L201 in a tank, local and imports, there is no difference in size, shape or aggresion to tell them a part.

As for not reducing the price ..yes it will

, the imports cost me $450 each and l will sell my local bred for about $250 just because they are locally bred, l will get about 12 per spawn.

Waldo,If l want to be smart, l could give the L201 to the guy that l bought the imports from and he could sell them as imports

, who would know the difference, imports sell at 3.5cm, l would not sell mine under that size either, there is no way known you can tell the difference.

Ten fish in a tank, 5 imports, 5 local, l bet they ALL lay very still and under a shelter whilst you select the one you want to buy....or do the imports speak another language

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 18 May 2006, 22:50

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 19 May 2006, 21:06

Thanks Dukerider. It was not my intension to slam some thing that was meant to do the zebras some good. I am thinking that it just may not be enough.
Why do I think that way? Well, I used to house 1 goldy pleco with 2 zebras in the same tank. I did it because from my research, they both come from the same part of the Rio Xingu river. I think I remember even reading that they even live in the same depth. From my experience, eventhough they where all the same size when I bought them. The goldy pleco quickly out grow the zebras. It began to dominate 3/4 of the tank and 2 male zebras was only left with a little corner. There where lots of cave in the tank, but the goldy pleco just won't tolerate the zebras taking up residence close to it. Also when feeding time comes, it will nip the zebras when they cross into it's territory.
In the end, I have to separate them. I have to admit that the tank was just a small 20G. But still, I have no doubt that the goldy pleco will always take the best part of the cave and push the zebras out. They will always be the first to eat.
Now going back to this topic. If the zebras have been so badly over farmed as mentioned earlier, then I am affraid that that over farming may have already upset the ecosystem balance of the river. This might have a drastic effect on the zebras, since they are a smaller species when compare to the goldy pleco. So just because the ban was in effect, it may do moot to help the zebras if the ecosystem was damaged from over farming. That is why I raised my point. It would've been so much more re-assuring if more study was done to see if the ban was actually working instead of just hoping it might work ...

jd_7655 · Post by **jd_7655** » 21 May 2006, 10:26

Hi all just wanted to jump in and add my 2 cents. I think this fish is exteemly over rated. The last time I saw a zebra pleco was in 2001. My LPS had 12 of them. They were going for $80 each. At the time I thought it was outragous considering I had a chance to buy 3 at $40 each a year prior.

I personly think its a shame that this species has been hunted to the edge of extinction in the wild. With so many other beautifull plecos to chose from why is this species being singled out? Simple supply and demand. Wtih such a low supply and a high demand they prices will stay the way they are. Thats why I will never buy a zebra pleco be it wild or tank raise. Because I will not contubute in any way to the stuff going on with this species. After all it is a fish being kept in a little glass box for our own personal amusement. I think the presevation of the species out weighs my need for entertainment.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 May 2006, 15:29

Zebrapl3co, you're totally right in that if numbers of H.zebra get to below minimum viable population, they are very likely to suffer from competitive exclusion.

However I think this is an even greater reason to fully ban their capture.

Just because the bam was on doesn't really mean the zebras will recoperate.

This comment gave me the impression you were against the ban.

If the zebras have been so badly over farmed as mentioned earlier, then I am affraid that that over farming may have already upset the ecosystem balance of the river

Also, I think using the term "farming" is quite misleading, as they are not being farmed at all. They are being caught, or fished.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 21 May 2006, 22:29

jd_7655, next time you look at those prices think of us poor Aussie's $650 to $800 each.
racoll, you would think that for an income of any type they would try and farm any fish, especially one that can be sold so easly

Daniel Machado · Post by **Daniel Machado** » 25 May 2006, 17:16

Hello everybody.

As a brazilian biologist and part of the IBAMA staff, I think I should say a few words about the zebra pleco...

This species is ENDEMIC to the Xingu River Basin, what means that there is NO Hypancistrus zebra in Peru, Colombia, Boliva, or anywhere. Just in Brazil. Period.

If anyone is exporting this species from other countries, the fish are being smuggled from Brazil, and then sold there. Period.

This species is banned from the commercial trade (capturing, selling, exporting), being allowed the capture for scientific purposes, through approval of the research project and supervision. Any specimen captured for scientific research can NOT be sold, since it's banned from the trade. If any institution gets a collecting/exporting license and sells the obtained specimens, it's doing something ILLEGAL. Period.

Any wild-caught zebra plec for sale is ILLEGAL, and came from a sort of smuggling, even if it's offered for sale in a responsible and reputable LFS. Buying it is supporting the called "black market". Period.

A friend from ParÃ¡, an ornamental fish distributor/seller/exporter, told me that the zebras captured nowadays are smaller, being harder and harder to catch. Most collectors get a bunch of juvies, and virtually NO adult. When they get adults, they get YOUNG adults, no more full-grown specimens. Not to mention the fishermen have to dive a lot deeper, almost twice the deep they used to go to catch zebras. This IS a hard and solid FACT that shows the overexploitation of the zebras. Period.

Barbie wrote: Let's make this clear yet again. Zebras are NOT protected or listed as possibly endangered species. They are simply banned from export by Brazil. Period. That doesn't mean this isn't a good thing, it just means that the information that people keep insisting on repeating is sometimes a far cry from the truth.

Not exactly... Not only the zebra is banned from the "safe-list" of the aquarium trade, but it IS also in an endangered/ unknown freshwater fish list provided by IBAMA. Gonna find the link and post it here.

Best regards.

Daniel.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 25 May 2006, 22:34

Thanks Daniel, that was really good to hear from someone who is on the ground there rather than the "afriend of mine knows a guy..."
l would like to cut and paste that on another site, this certain clears up a lot of things for many people

Daniel Machado · Post by **Daniel Machado** » 25 May 2006, 23:34

Boots n all,

Feel free to do it. It's better to keep everyone informed about the real problems involving Hypancistrus zebra, IMHO.

Best regards.

Daniel.

Post by **Barbie** » 26 May 2006, 06:33

That's the first I've heard that IBAMA has them listed as endangered. Do you have links to any articles that state that that I could use for reference? We'd love to have that type of information for zebrapleco.com. I'm glad to hear they're actually protecting them but it actually makes me more curious to hear how the importers here got their hands on the zebras that were exported under "research" permits. I know of more than one that accomplished it, so it seems a bit strange if they're listed that the government would allow such a thing?

Barbie

cartouche · Post by **cartouche** » 26 May 2006, 18:28

People, I wonder, why you are so crazy for zebras! Let them be in Rio Xingu and to their thievish sellers! There are many other beautiful species.

This is my dream, for example:

Cattleya · Post by **Cattleya** » 26 May 2006, 19:11

Hi

tell me more about your dream

seller?
location ?

lg Udo

cartouche · Post by **cartouche** » 26 May 2006, 19:26

Yes, I know the seller, but they have found only few pieces during their expedition to the jungle...in one South American country

And they gave them as a gift to their worthy customer. The seller told me that each expedition cost him about 3000 dollars. He probably wanted to indicate, what I would have to pay for this fish

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 26 May 2006, 22:32

My Dream has come true, and l am now breeding them....
Hypan. Inspectors L201

l am sooooooo happy

cartouche · Post by **cartouche** » 27 May 2006, 02:11

To be more concrete: The "unknown" L-number is from Venezuela.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 27 May 2006, 09:35

cartouche wrote:To be more concrete: The "unknown" L-number is from Venezuela.

I'm not so sure it's unknown this is looks like a young species of Leporacanthicus and the adults might be shown here: http://www.auburn.edu/academic/science_ ... index.html

That's not to say the young fish won't get its own l-number - what would be nice would be to see the adult.

Jools

cartouche · Post by **cartouche** » 27 May 2006, 12:50

The species really doesn't look like a young Leporacanthicus, at least what I can judge from the photographs here and elsewhere in the internet. Leporacanthicus are spotted, while this fish is mottled. It also doesn't look like anything known from Venezuela so far, perhaps except Pseudolithoxus tigris (L-257).
http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/water ... 272&size=1

But you would have to assume that the colour pattern changes and the black lines thicken with age. It looks very unlikely anyway. Naturally, of some species there exist only few photographs, if any at all.

Daniel Machado · Post by **Daniel Machado** » 27 May 2006, 14:48

Barbie wrote:That's the first I've heard that IBAMA has them listed as endangered. Do you have links to any articles that state that that I could use for reference? We'd love to have that type of information for zebrapleco.com. I'm glad to hear they're actually protecting them but it actually makes me more curious to hear how the importers here got their hands on the zebras that were exported under "research" permits. I know of more than one that accomplished it, so it seems a bit strange if they're listed that the government would allow such a thing?

Barbie

Barbie,

Here's a couple links of interest. They're in portuguese, but i'm gonna translate the texts soon and post it here.

This is the official list of endangered aquatic species in Brazil: http://www.ibama.gov.br/sp/download.php?id_download=53 (it includes the zebra pleco).

This is the list of ALLOWED species of freshwater fishes in the ornamental fish trade: http://www.ibama.gov.br/sp/download.php?id_download=54.
ANYTHING that is NOT on this list is ILLEGAL if comes from Brazil. There are some "open" genera, not restricting the species, but these do not include species listed as endangered, obviously. Oh, almost forgot... Gotta right-click and save destiny as..., because direct-linkingh doesn't work well.

Personally, I don't believe ANY importer got zebras exported under "research permits". I think they heard about it and tell this story to fool the possible buyers. Even if it's obtained under a research permit, it can NOT be sold. If it happens with the allowance of the government, there's some evidence (and yes, I'm being kindly) of illegal posture from the person in duty. I'd LOVE to get some of these permits, to see who signed the papers.

Best regards.

Daniel.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 27 May 2006, 15:51

cartouche wrote:The species really doesn't look like a young Leporacanthicus, at least what I can judge from the photographs here and elsewhere in the internet. Leporacanthicus are spotted, while this fish is mottled. It also doesn't look like anything known from Venezuela so far, perhaps except Pseudolithoxus tigris (L-257).

Sorry, but this is just plain misinformation! Here's a picture of the fishes mouth found right underneath the picture you posted.

You're seriosuly telling me that's not a Leporacanthicus?

Also it's far too deep bodied to look anything like !

Jools

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 29 May 2006, 00:23

Daniel Machado wrote:
Barbie wrote:That's the first I've heard that IBAMA has them listed as endangered. Do you have links to any articles that state that that I could use for reference? We'd love to have that type of information for zebrapleco.com. I'm glad to hear they're actually protecting them but it actually makes me more curious to hear how the importers here got their hands on the zebras that were exported under "research" permits. I know of more than one that accomplished it, so it seems a bit strange if they're listed that the government would allow such a thing?

Barbie
Barbie,

Here's a couple links of interest. They're in portuguese, but i'm gonna translate the texts soon and post it here.

This is the official list of endangered aquatic species in Brazil: http://www.ibama.gov.br/sp/download.php?id_download=53 (it includes the zebra pl*co).

This is the list of ALLOWED species of freshwater fishes in the ornamental fish trade: http://www.ibama.gov.br/sp/download.php?id_download=54.
ANYTHING that is NOT on this list is ILLEGAL if comes from Brazil. There are some "open" genera, not restricting the species, but these do not include species listed as endangered, obviously. Oh, almost forgot... Gotta right-click and save destiny as..., because direct-linkingh doesn't work well.

Personally, I don't believe ANY importer got zebras exported under "research permits". I think they heard about it and tell this story to fool the possible buyers. Even if it's obtained under a research permit, it can NOT be sold. If it happens with the allowance of the government, there's some evidence (and yes, I'm being kindly) of illegal posture from the person in duty. I'd LOVE to get some of these permits, to see who signed the papers.

Best regards.

Daniel.

I could kiss you! If your an exporter keep up the good work.

Daniel Machado · Post by **Daniel Machado** » 29 May 2006, 05:38

Waldo,

I'm no exporter... I'm a hobbyist for over 20 years, biologist and member of the IBAMA staff. I have several friends of mine which are exporters of FW and SW ornamenteal fishes, though. If the collectors and exporters were more responsible, that wouldn't be necessary to make such a prohibition or ban out of the trade these species like Hypancistrus zebra, IMHO.

Best regards.

Daniel.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 29 May 2006, 06:49

We'll thanks. I know it's hard you catch a lot of flack from people that are more interested in the $ then the actual hobby. It's a cutthought business and i've got to compete with them. Let me know if I can do anything to help out.

sojapat · Post by **sojapat** » 01 Jun 2006, 23:09

If it were made ok for the fish to be exported for research
How do the Ibama know who is actually doing this for the good of the species ?Not for their personal gain..
I have also travelled in South America to the mentioned river ..The fish are very few in number ..
I have collected in several locations this fish was hammered, and as a few of you wrote earlier...so what if they have no solid research to back the ban.
Leave them alone a while it will do them no harm.
What do you think has happened to them all ?
The fishermen even will tell you at certain places they used to catch Zebras but there are now none there.
These fishes payed the wages of a few fishermen in Altamira and they are good at catching them ! That is why they need a rest ..Research or not ...

Zebra export discussion from the for sale thread

Hm

Hmm

Great

My dream

Re: My dream

Re: My dream

Re: My dream

Re: My dream

Reasearch ?