Panaque maccus, breeding

Zohar · Post by **Zohar** » 22 Feb 2006, 07:13

At what age and size Panaque maccus start breeding?

I have five of them for almost a year and they are about 7 cm. I got them at about 3-4 cm. Is the grow speed normal?

Thanks,
Zohar

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Feb 2006, 16:16

I'd say that's pretty good growth rate for them.

They are probably ready to breed, but they aren't the most common fish to breed.

In this thread, there's a link (on the second page) to someone that did spawn a closely related fish...

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=12108

--
Mats

Zohar · Post by **Zohar** » 22 Feb 2006, 19:18

In that case, could make more sense to wait some more months before starting to breed them, at least i will know they ready. And not wasting a tank for nothing.

What do you think?

Zohar

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 22 Feb 2006, 19:29

If they can be easily sexed, have a go at breeding.

Zohar · Post by **Zohar** » 22 Feb 2006, 19:33

They are not easily sexed.

Zohar · Post by **Zohar** » 24 Feb 2006, 15:19

Well review them carefully, they are hard to find... i have two "big" ones at 7cm, probably males and three small onces 5 cm could be still young or female. I think i will give tham several more months, what do you think?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Feb 2006, 15:30

Yes, I would say, from experience of other Ancistrinae, that the males grow biggger/quicker than the females (this is a good reason to NOT just pick the biggest fish when picking out a group to breed!).

But until they have a good amount of hair on the rear part of the body, it's pretty darn difficult to say if they are male or female.

A post in this thread has photos of male and female: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=14780

--
Mats

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:43

Hello all,

I have to put my two cents in on this post. Panaque maccus can, and have, been spawned in an aquarium. I'm kind of responding to 2 threads here since the other was given as a link above.

As to size, IME, males will be about 9 cm. Females will be approximately 7 cm. In 2 separate colonies, one incorrectly listed as Peckoltia vitatta in my book, both groups were about this size when spawning occurred. However, you'll see from the description I'll give that I had reason for waiting so long to attempt spawning.

These are not easily spawned, and not for the beginner. The literature I had at the time had both species listed as coming from the area around the northern Xingu and Amazon at the intersection of those rivers.

Just as a side note, this is the "mystery fish" that got me started spawning plecos via accidental spawn. The entire key to spawning is a very extended dry season. Three months should get a response from mature breeders. Experimentation to see if the season could be shortened was a lesson in futility, and longer may help with young breeders. pH should be about 6.8 and <100 ppm TDS after the rainy season stabilizes. Starting water values were my tap water which was pH 7.8ish and ~400 ppm TDS.

The pH dropped dramatically over the dry season and was nearly 6.0 before the rainy season was started. I used distilled water for the rainy season that was cooled to drop the temperature about 10 degrees with each water change. The maintenance temperature in the tank was 82-84 degrees.

Spawns are rather small compared to most Peckoltia, which all were thought to be at that time, nearly 18 years ago. As a result, I did not continue spawning the fish after the initial cycling had ran its course and the fish stopped spawning. However, they reproduced so often during the 6 months that they spawned that I had trouble selling all the fry and had some of them for well over a year before the LFS was able to sell through them.

As to the credibility issue mentioned in the other thread, I have just sent payment to get a domain and space on the web to sell my fish from and place articles, photos, and advertise a revision (this time with photos and more up to date information) of my book. The book has been a long overdue project and is just waiting on pics from the racks I'm just finishing building, so we're still a bit away from a publication date. No PMs about the book please.

Larry Vires

Griparn · Post by **Griparn** » 24 Feb 2006, 17:57

Thanks for your input Larry. Im into breeding this species and I have now started a new rainperiod. I have 1+2 and the male occupies one cave all the time and one female is just outside. This behaviour started when I began changing water.

You talked about a extended rainy season, about 3 months. You didnt mention how often to change water? Right now I have done about one waterchange each day with 20 % fresh water.

ndoboi · Post by **ndoboi** » 24 Feb 2006, 23:02

Im getting a bit confused by this too. Can someone explain to me plainly, on a timeline, how the dry/rainy season will work, with water parameters????

Are they going to breed in the dry or the rainy? Is the rainy season when RO water is introduced to lower the ph and conductivity (hardness)?? Or is it the other way around - rainy season to increase ph? I see daily water changes for rainy (which makes perfect sense) so what is the regime during the dry season??

Sorry Larry if I just cant understand your post

Im not after all your 'secrets' just an easier way to understand the methods used to stimulate these guys (P. Maccus) to spawn.

Cheers
Stephen

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 25 Feb 2006, 05:00

ndoboi,

I've never kept any secrets about spawning fish. I simply wait for someone to ask the question in most cases. If they don't know which question to ask, they're not ready for the answer

Simply put, regardless of the environment, the rainy season is going to lower the TDS and adjust the water toward a neutral pH regardless of the starting point. During a dry season, I will pull out just enough tank water to clean the filter sponges in and keep the temperature at the upper range for the species.

Different breeders have different definitions of what a rainy season entails. I have talked to several breeders that simply do a single, heavy (up to 80%) water change. I never had any luck with this, so I normally do 1/3 every second day. Once a week, I do a full 50%. All of the changes are set to lower the temp, but the 50% water change dramatically drops the TDS and is usually the change that triggers the most spawning activity.

Larry Vires

ndoboi · Post by **ndoboi** » 25 Feb 2006, 06:32

Thanks Larry

Im looking forward to giving this a try once the we get a bit closer to winter here in Australia. Too hard to get the water temp down when it's constantly 30+ celsius every day!!! Without heaters my tank is sitting between 27-30

so water changes will only temperarily bring the temp down.

Thanks for your insight.

Cheers
Stephen

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Feb 2006, 09:58

the rainy season is going to lower the TDS and adjust the water toward a neutral pH regardless of the starting point.

Hi Larry.

It was my understanding that [in a river] with increased rain, there would be a dilution of TDS which would therefore decrease the KH, causing a DROP in pH, rather than a rise.

I am assuming that the starting point is around 6.0, as this about the typical value quoted for many of the southern Amazon clearwater tributaries during dry season.

If the pH does rise during the rainy season, this is news to me!

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 25 Feb 2006, 15:23

racoll,

I can't supply information about what happens chemically in South American rivers. What I know is what has happened in my tanks. The explaination is rather simple though. kH is not the only thing controlling pH. You are also changing the hydrogen content of the water. Since RO, DI, and distilled are nearly pure the pH is driven toward neutral. Any waste, mulm, or other organic matter in the tank is what is going to lower the pH in an aquarium.

Larry Vires

Post by **Shane** » 25 Feb 2006, 17:44

Racoll (and others),

If the pH does rise during the rainy season, this is news to me!

The pH can rise or fall based on the current condition of the water, but a rise is not uncommon. Heavy rains in the mountains and piedmont can raise the pH of whitewaters as additional buffers (salts and minerals) are washed into the river system. In a blackwater system, very few buffers are washed into the water since the system gains its water either from the jungle floor or old mountain ranges that have long since been devoid of salts. That said, the pH can rise based on simple dilution and increased water flow. As the river picks up speed in the wet season the water is in contact less time with decaying vegetation. It is like the difference of teabag's effect on a cup of water versus a teabag in a 5 gallon bucket.
The water could thus decrease in TDS (since rainwater has none) and increase in pH as the rain water (pH 7) interacts with the blackwater (pH 4.5-6.5).
-Shane

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 27 Feb 2006, 19:40

Shane and Larry, thanks for the explanations. I should really have known that.

A couple of points though.

Shane wrote...

rain water (pH 7)

I'm assuming that in South America there isn't the same level of sulphur dioxide etc in the atmosphere causing the acid rain we get in northern Europe, although I did think that rain was naturally slightly acid anyway.

Larry wrote...

Since RO, DI, and distilled are nearly pure the pH is driven toward neutral

.

My RO produces water that's about pH 5.3, so how would I be able to achieve a water change with water of a lower TDS but with a higher pH?

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 28 Feb 2006, 05:51

racoll,

RO water should be close to neutral, but is highly variable because it has been stripped of all buffers and acids. My first question would be how old your cartridges are. Most are only intended to last 6 months, but some manufacturers are now producing them to be intended for 1 year. My next question, assuming that your cartridges are good, is to ask how you are getting a stable measurment. The amount of CO2 in the air will cause rapid changes in the pH of non-buffered RO water. This is easily visible when testing with a digital meter, but a chemical test kit will normally show a very low reading as the chemicals have to stabilize the acid and are in a constant state of flux. Therefore, you get a low reading.

Larry Vires

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Feb 2006, 06:58

Hi Larry,

The membrane and carbon filters are about 2 years old, but the unit is is still producing water within it's tolerances (95% I think).

It's always produced water at about 5, except when I first got it and the water came out at 8.5, but this I think was due to the membrane preservative.

I use a digital meter (recently calibrated), and yes it does jump up and down (from about 5.0 to 5.5).

I'm thinking about getting a DI unit, as here in the the UK, we're looking at the biggest drought for 50 years this coming summer.