does anyone in the uk actually own a true L144?

dj_speed_uk · Post by **dj_speed_uk** » 04 Nov 2005, 12:09

on my quest to find the L144 ive been advised by a lfs, that these are

the zebras of the the bn family in the uk

I was just a bit puzzled by this. I ve been around and the only thing that came near was a brown bn sold under the L144. I would be interested to know if people are keeping them in uk, how true is the quote

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Nov 2005, 12:45

The real looks like an albino but with black eyes, which means that it's amelanistic (i.e. lacking melanin, body coulouration), but it's not completely albinistic, since it's got black eyes.

I'd say that they are fairly rare in the trade, but calling them "The zebra of the Bristlenoses" may be stretching it...

Common bristlenose in albino form is fairly common.

I wouldn't buy these, because they look just like albinos, and I prefer the "natural" look that most other Ancistrus has. But that's my personal view, and that's not to say that others won't like them...

--
Mats

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 04 Nov 2005, 12:59

Thats very interesting.
One of the cheaper Ancistrus here but you can get them for 5-8 euros depending on size.

From what Ive read these will breed like normal rabbits err Ancistrus ;) meaning a breeding group will produce a lot of fry on a regular basis...say 40 fry per female/month. If you get hold of a group you could flood the english market with these.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Nov 2005, 13:14

Caol_ila wrote:Thats very interesting.
One of the cheaper Ancistrus here but you can get them for 5-8 euros depending on size.

From what Ive read these will breed like normal rabbits err Ancistrus ;) meaning a breeding group will produce a lot of fry on a regular basis...say 40 fry per female/month. If you get hold of a group you could flood the english market with these.

I would expect that's true, once you got them breeding they wouldn't stop unless you separate the male & female.

40-60 fry per female, once a month or so. It would just take a big growout-tank, since it takes about three-four months to get to a decent size that you can sell them [or longer, depending on how much you give them to eat, size of tank and water-change frequency]. A 150-200 liter tank would probably work well enough, giving you room to hold about 200-250 fry that you'd have by the end of the first four month, then you just fish out and deliver 40-50 every month from there on. If you have two females, a 300 liter tank would probably work better, and a few more water changes...

--
Mats

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 04 Nov 2005, 18:43

Is L144 a fish that is found anywhere in the wild ? or is it a man made aberation ? In the wild is the lack of pigment that produces these fish passed onto the next generation or is it somwhat random ?

The ones I have are a very disticnt yellow as opposed to pale pink / white of an albino. They are being bred by at least 2 hobbyists that I know of in New Zealand, but both report that they are a little less proflific breeding wise than common BN's. (eggs are less 'sticky' and easily dislodged from cave) I got a few from each breeder to raise up to adult size and try breeding them myself.
They are available commercially here as imports but Im not sure of the price.

sharko · Post by **sharko** » 06 Nov 2005, 20:03

L144 was found in Paraguay.They did exist in the wild, but you'll have to search high and low for WC nowadays.Have not seen a WC L144 for years now-All of the L144 in Norway is breed.
The yellow colour is natural, and not man made.
However some of the fry is born with brown spots
Maybe its orginal colour?????

Look at the last pic

http://www.akvarieforum.no/text.cfm?id=1564

I have had over 400 fry of this ancistrus, and they are still breeding...

Post by **Shane** » 06 Nov 2005, 23:01

Is L144 a fish that is found anywhere in the wild ?

A single melanistic male was exported from Paraguay. He was then spawned with the normal color females in the same shipment and later bred back to his own daughters to fix the mutation.
-Shane

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 07 Nov 2005, 03:55

Thanks Shane

So barring any other 'melanistic' wild caught fish (which if I understand correctly would be rather rare, then most other L144 can be traced back to this single male ???

Thats a hell of a leagcy he has left

Am I correct that this genetic mutation is similar to the albino mutation and thus about as rare in wild fish ?

cheers

Post by **Shane** » 07 Nov 2005, 13:21

Am I correct that this genetic mutation is similar to the albino mutation and thus about as rare in wild fish ?

Yes, though it appears to happen more frequently with catfishes than other fishes. Look at the number of fixed melanistic catfish spp. in the hobby.
Perhaps the important thing though is that this sp. is already very inbred and just gets more so every generation hobbyists spawn them.
-Shane

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 09 Nov 2005, 01:52

For anyone who may be intersted and dosnt have any background in genetics (like me). I did some research and found the following information. I know this is basic stuff to some of you, but just in case anyone is wondering.

Please correct me if im wrong here...

'Albino' as most people know is an abscence of pigment (color) that results in a pink colored fish with red eyes, and is fairly common.

'Melanistic' is an abscence of light colored pigments that results in dark (black / brown) colorations usually with normal eye color.

'Amelanistic' is an abscence of dark colored pigments that results in a tan / yellow colored fish (as in L144) with normal colored eyes.

All are genetic mutations that may occur rarely in wild populations but rarely have a chance to become permanant due to natural selection (being pink or yellow in the wild is an invitation to be eaten) but that can often be made permanant by selective captive breeding programs.

sharko · Post by **sharko** » 09 Nov 2005, 18:51

What would happend if you breed two of this L144 which have this brown spot?

Will the fry turn back to its orginal color?

Any info you can give me is appreciated, then i have to update the article i have written in Norwegian about this Ancistrus with the correct info...

Sorry about the poor english

Post by **Shane** » 09 Nov 2005, 22:24

What would happend if you breed two of this L144 which have this brown spot?

Will the fry turn back to its orginal color?

I assume it would be possible to "fix" the spots over time. This is probably how piebald catfishes (like Ancistrus and Clarias) were made. Depending on the exact genetics, I would assume some normal colored fry would appear from time to time. Someone more familiar with angel fish or guppy genetics would probably be able to shed additional light on this topic.
-Shane

sharko · Post by **sharko** » 12 Nov 2005, 13:46

I guess it was a Amelanistic male and not a melanistic male that were found, if FuglyDragon is correct or i am i wrong?

Shane wrote:
Is L144 a fish that is found anywhere in the wild ?
A single melanistic male was exported from Paraguay. He was then spawned with the normal color females in the same shipment and later bred back to his own daughters to fix the mutation.
-Shane

Post by **Shane** » 13 Nov 2005, 15:22

Yes, I meant amelanistic. My bad.
-Shane