best for breeding multipunctatus

rfb · Post by **rfb** » 20 Sep 2005, 21:46

I am sure this has been asked before but what are the best fish to get multipunctatus to bred I have heard that electric yellows can be used but the pet shop says that would be a waste of time as the electric yellow has no market here.To me that is a bit strange because isnt that the point of breeding cookoo cats as they are parasite fish and you would not wnt to breed the expensive fish with them.so is the electric yellow or labidochromis a good fish to choose or would it be a waste of my time.what do you suggest as the fish of choice.and really what are the BEST triggers to get them to this point,to breed etc thanks for the time and effort put forward in any response,as all will be of help to me I can guarantee it

djw66 · Post by **djw66** » 20 Sep 2005, 23:45

rfb wrote:I am sure this has been asked before but what are the best fish to get multipunctatus to bred I have heard that electric yellows can be used but the pet shop says that would be a waste of time as the electric yellow has no market here.To me that is a bit strange because isnt that the point of breeding cookoo cats as they are parasite fish and you would not wnt to breed the expensive fish with them.so is the electric yellow or labidochromis a good fish to choose or would it be a waste of my time.what do you suggest as the fish of choice.and really what are the BEST triggers to get them to this point,to breed etc thanks for the time and effort put forward in any response,as all will be of help to me I can guarantee it

They really don't need other fish to parasite and mouth brood their eggs. Without them, multipunctatus just scatters its eggs like most Synos do.

By the way, rather rude your LFS wouldn't get you the yellows you were after.

Dave

rfb · Post by **rfb** » 21 Sep 2005, 00:28

I thank you for the help first and foremost,I thinkfrom what you are saying that it would be ok then to pull them and put them into a breeding tank or is it best to just leave them in the commmunity tank and hope for the best?
I think with the cost these days of anything that is cool error on the sde of caution but with the four that I have I might have a chance.what would you do go for the gusto?I live in a smaller town so of course the concern is the chances of getting more if the experiment fails.thanks again for all the help

davidkozak · Post by **davidkozak** » 21 Sep 2005, 09:13

I've just in the past few weeks started breeding multipunctatus, and I've been using Astatotilapia Nubilus..I've currently got 10 fry I'm raising :) D.

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 22 Sep 2005, 02:06

I find that they prefer to breed with peacocks rather than mbuna, and haps. I haven't heard many acounts with mbuna. I have bred petricola 2-3 times with mbuna though, but it hasn't been for a year. And I am thinking of giving them away and getting multis

Post by **Barbie** » 22 Sep 2005, 04:45

Synodontis petricola eggs are TINY. They are not parasitic spawners, at least with mouthbrooders. You might try the appropriate method of inducing spawning, covered in HERE for more success laurab5.

The problem people run into with finding hosts for Syno. multis is the fact that the cichlids get wise to what is happening and either get "put off" their spawn, or learn to sort the catfish eggs from their own and spit them out. Victorian haps are not instinctively aware of what is happening, their eggs are smaller anyway, so less "sorting" is possible, and they are VERY aggressive spawners. All of which tend to make them great candidates as surrogate parents. I personally have found that my Syno. multis keep my peacocks from spawning very frequently, along with my yellow labs. They just stop and wander off when the Synos start their spawning passes.

Barbie

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 22 Sep 2005, 14:39

Labidochromis caeruleus (Yellow Labs) are not a good choice as a host for Synodontis multipunctatus.
Their mouths are too small and yes they will get wise to the catfish spawns. In the wild these catfish
parasite Ctenochromis horei which are available in the hobby. I inquired with several people
that have spawned Synodontis multipunctatus before I added mine to my 55 and they did
suggest Victorians (Astatotilapia latifasciata specifically).

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 22 Sep 2005, 16:26

Be adviced that Ctenochromis horei is not that easy to keep!

it's a VERY AGRESSIVE cichlid from Tanganyika, easily kills members of its' own species; often when a group "collapses" you end up with a single male.

It's not agressive to Syno's -in general- but keeping a breeding group of Ctenochromis horei demands a large tank, a great number of this not often available fish and the experienced hand of the Tanganyikans-keeper.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 22 Sep 2005, 16:47

Yes, but Ctenochromis horei is a Haplochromine!

Any open substrate spawning Victorian cichlid (formerly Haplochromis) is a good candidate for a "host". Of the more common species Haplochromis sp. "Flameback" and "Rock Kribensis" are actually relatively poor choices as the fish tend to spawn under an overhanging rock. This makes them better able to defend their nests from the catfish. A. sp. "Ugandan Fire Hap." worked very, very well for me (over 700 fry in 18 months from 5 adult fish).
There are many, many other Haplochromine species to choose from. Even those from nearby satellite lakes have been reported to work well as host fish.

While it's true that S. multipunctatus will spawn as an egg scatterer, they spawn much more regularly and predicably with a host fish.

Also, allow your cichlids to mature and to establish a regular (weekly) spawning pattern prior to adding the catfish.
If you don't even Victorian cichlids will quit spawning similar to the Malawians (perhaps having something to do with a repeated lack of sucess).

Post by **Dinyar** » 22 Sep 2005, 22:14

sidguppy wrote:Be adviced that Ctenochromis horei is not that easy to keep!

it's a VERY AGRESSIVE c*****d from Tanganyika, easily kills members of its' own species; often when a group "collapses" you end up with a single male.

It's not agressive to Syno's -in general- but keeping a breeding group of Ctenochromis horei demands a large tank, a great number of this not often available fish and the experienced hand of the Tanganyikans-keeper.

I guess experiences vary. We kept half a dozen C horei from a juvenile stage to adult in a 125 g tank and they were undemanding. They ate anything, they didn't bother other cichlids or catfish in the tank, and the alpha male displayed spectacular coloration.

When we added three more C horei to the established group, they were torn to shreds in minutes. We also found they ate plants ravenously. They were ravenous about food in general. And it was obvious there was no hope of a cuckoo spawning with our multis. So eventually we got rid of them.

In the US they are available as F1 for low prices.

stallion81 · Post by **stallion81** » 27 Sep 2005, 00:06

I will have to suggest using AHLI's(Haps). EL's are a bit small mouthed. I have witnessed great success with these. Try to get as many female Ahlis as possible. I have not personnally tried this, but will be attempting in a 55g this winter. I will use 1M/1F S Multi and 1M/10F Ahlis.This setup has been used with great success from a local breeder(bigger tank/more Ahlis and Synos). Put it this way, breeder is suggesting this setup so I can help keep his stock of Multis up to demand.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 27 Sep 2005, 14:16

In a friends tank in Minnesota, I witness first hand, a male Hap. ahli chase a female Synodontis multipunctatus across the lengh of a 125 gallon tank several times (through caves and under rocks) until he finally trapped her in a cave. He continued to attack her for over 2 minutes until I separated them with a net handle. This was is retaliation to interrupting the Haps. spawning.

The following day, the Synodontis was dead.

I do not recommend you use Malawian of any kind. They all seem to learn to stop spawning in the presence of brood parasites.
I don't recommend:
...Hap. ahli for the reasons above.
...Aulonacara in that I watched (first hand again) a female "Sunshine peacock" pick up her eggs along with several catfish eggs. She then swam slowly across the front of a 55 gallon aquarium "chewing" the eggs. While she swam, she was ejecting the catfish eggs from her gills. Upon stripping (fifteen minutes later), only cichlid eggs remained!
...Electric yellows because they are invertibrate pickers and thereby have sharp front teeth that do significant damage upon attack.
...All species of Mbuna, being significantly well armed (both pickers and algae scrapers) and well inclined to use it.

The fact that Malawian cichlids have significant defenses against brood parasitism makes me wonder if this behavior had ever evolved in the endemic Synodontis millenia ago in Malawi but has since been selected out due to behavioral changes in the cichlids.

Something to think about...

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 27 Sep 2005, 16:50

I don't think that was the case for mainly two reasons:
#1: Malawi is a lot younger than Tanganyika, the fact that there are many more Malawian species than Tanganyikans is perhaps due to massive radiation-evolution by the Haplochromines, combined with less predators around (Hydrocynus, Lates etc are absent in Malawi, but present in Tanganyika); in Tanganyika all kinds of "radiated evolved" species might have been "minnowed out" in the course of time by these ferocious predators.
Another perfect example is Synodontis njassae itself wich still migrates to the edges and riverdelta's in the lake to spawn; migratory spawning is a typical trait of many riverine Syno's. It still has an annual spawning season, unlike most Tanganyikan Syno's wich spawn year round (unusual for riverine Syno's).

#2: many Tanganyikan species are just as well armed and just as agressive as any Mbuna; we can take for examples Tropheus, Petrochromis, many scale-eaters like Plecodus and Perissodus, and Tropheus' "little brother" Simochromis, wich despite being a very nasty fish actually HAS been recorded as being a host for Synodontis multipunctatus, although less commonly used than Ctenochromis horei.

This Mbuna-case is a bit short of the whole story; ditto Haps; on this very site is a pictured ralais of breeding S multipunctatus with a Malawian; in this case the fairly gentle Placidochromis electra.
This particular Malawian sanddweller is mildmannered, without any sharp teeth and obviously "dumb" enough to use.

I've seen other Malawians fall for the trick, fish like Nimbochromis fuscotaeniatus and the like. a big Hap with attitude, but the many hiding places where the Syno's could go and the Nimbo's wouldn't fit where probably one of the causes of the succesful breeding.

Another breeder used Otopharynx lithobates for quite a long time, eventually those fish learned the tricks, but only after many spawnings were succesful for the multies.

Victorians are likely the very best host, if you have no objections to stripping.
If you don't like to strip, P electra and it's blueish cousin P phenochilus might very well be the next best thing.

stallion81 · Post by **stallion81** » 28 Sep 2005, 00:24

Just goes to show, diff fish have diff personalitys. I hope that it is obvious that you cannot use the same M/F's all the time. They will "figure" it out. Just my 2 cents though, and I will be using Hap Ahlis for myself(and am betting on good success). Good luck no matter which fish you choose.

rfb · Post by **rfb** » 01 Nov 2005, 20:05

So if I want to have a good chance at breeding these fish what you are saying is that I need not only the sponge filter idea but also the cichlid hosts as well.On top of this there could be the chance the tank is to small and the fish might be imature.
I live in a smaller Canadian city that if you are really lucky you will see somethinig interesting come through maybe twice a year,so any suggestions on how I might come across some of these host cichlids.The information has been wonderfull and thanks for all of it,makes for a wonderful experience.

bossfish · Post by **bossfish** » 27 Jan 2006, 03:26

I am currently trying to breed multis in a 240. For host fish I am using stomatepia mariae from lake barombe mbo. they are large mouthed and regularly have spawns of 50+ and the eggs are small. I have 13 multies in and I'm hoping for success. I wasn't aware that fish could get wise to the spawning of multies. If that's the case maybe I should get some other fish to replace the stomatepia.

best for breeding multipunctatus

best for breeding multipunctatus

Re: best for breeding multipunctatus

thanks