Bad incident, take some caution

[MissNoodle]

This month has been hectic with my 55 gallon...
Unfortunately my kid got hand sanitizer in it, which resulted in 6 cories dying and my BN pleco boy. However, many of the survivors have lasting problems now.
Many have gone blind.

The tank last month was gutted out, everything replaced, I pulled a spare filter from one of my other tanks (I always run extra filters!), and until the tank was scrubbed and sat with an entire huge bag of carbon, the fish lived in a tote for awhile. Once they got put back and things monitored...

Many of my fish have gone blind in one or both eyes because of this. All 6 of my cherry barbs in the tank are blinded, as are all of my weitzmani corydoras, CW028 cories, and a couple of my trilineatus cories too.
My hoplos had whiskers burned off from it, but have since grown back.

The fish are adapting, the cories especially seem to be getting on well, given their sense of smell, though has been a challenge with the cherry barbs but ive managed to get them to eat if the food is placed right in front of them... so good there.

But it was really touch and go, and really horrible for the cories lost. Symptoms were internal bleeding and eye swelling and inability to swim properly. The worst affected had to be euthanized.

Please be very cautious with the use of sanitizer in this time of the pandemic. It took just a minute of my kid trying to feed the fish to turn into a nightmare. It was one of the sanitizers used in stores, so industrial type, but can't say which one it was. But he didn't wash his hands prior like we normally do. Took his hands being in the tank for just a minute.

[bekateen]

Worry. Glad you were able to save some. How much hand sanitizer did he add?

[MissNoodle]

Worry. Glad you were able to save some. How much hand sanitizer did he add?

Just what he had on his hands of normal use. Usually we wash it off our hands once we get home, but he didn't remember to.

[MissNoodle]

Some of the survivors had bleeding in the skull at the time of the incident, but have pulled through and have been back to relative normal.

Most of the ones lost have been my paleatus group. The ones in this photo are surviving fish.

Hand sanitizer got in the tank, I did an immediate total water change and carbon but wasn't enough, then hours later fish started flashing, did another water change. Next day had fish with internal bleeding, swimming like drunk, eyes severely swollen, bleeding in skull... was very very hectic.

[bekateen]

[fishguy1978]

Wow, sorry to hear this. I’m curious what the time delay was between using hand sanitizer and hand entry into the aquarium was?

[MissNoodle]

Wow, sorry to hear this. I’m curious what the time delay was between using hand sanitizer and hand entry into the aquarium was?

We weren't home longer than 10 minutes when he did this, so probably about 30 minutes after leaving the store to that point.

[fishguy1978]

I wonder what was in the sanitizer that lasted that long. Any alcohol would have evaporated 15 seconds after application.

[Jools]

How long since the incident, I ask because I have seen eyes restored to full function after similar incidents.

Jools

[MissNoodle]

How long since the incident, I ask because I have seen eyes restored to full function after similar incidents.

Jools

October 19th is when it happened, so its been 27 days since.

I'm really hoping some get their sight back. The cories function really well, but the barbs are struggling. I can get them to eat but theyre stressed from it.

I wonder what was in the sanitizer that lasted that long. Any alcohol would have evaporated 15 seconds after application.

It was discussed on another board, we don't think it was the alcohol since industrial sanitizers are using other materials now, and there has been several in my country on recall for unsafe ingredients.

[Jools]

That's longer than I would have expected, but not much. I've seen eyes that look like that clear up after 2-3 weeks. Fingers crossed.

Jools

[MissNoodle]

That's longer than I would have expected, but not much. I've seen eyes that look like that clear up after 2-3 weeks. Fingers crossed.

Jools

I'm hoping so! The one CW028 is affected with the densest white in the eye.
But thats a bit of hope which is nice with this mess.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wow, sorry to hear this and I must say I am surprised. I imagine hand sanitizer manufacturers and most certainly the FDA (government Food and Drug Administration) understand that people who use their product can then touch their face, mouth, eyes, food, expose their mucus membranes to it, etc. especially smaller children... so there cannot be any dangerous and long-lingering chemicals in it. I naively thought it is isopropyl alcohol (same chemical as in the rubbing alcohol) with maybe vitamin E added as some bottles claim but that's it. Or given how gelatinous the sanitizer is, could be some other form of alcohol or some benign thickener added to the composition...

Not that it pertains to this case as the alcohol would have long evaporated but is it known if isopropyl alcohol (aka isopropanol) causes blindness, reminiscent of methyl alcohol aka methanol? I'd not think so as isopropanol is 3 times bigger a molecule than methanol and the 2x bigger ethanol is already benign compared to methanol.

I gotta read up on it. I cannot imagine that a chemical from hand sanitizer stayed on hands after 30 minutes in sufficient quantity to then be dissolved in 55 gallons of water and poison fish that bad. Again, it is likely my ignorance but I am shocked enough to start thinking about alternative explanations. As I was reading the original post I was imagining the child squirting sanitizer into the tank in a copious amount...

[MissNoodle]

Wow, sorry to hear this and I must say I am surprised. I imagine hand sanitizer manufacturers and most certainly the FDA (government Food and Drug Administration) understand that people who use their product can then touch their face, mouth, eyes, food, expose their mucus membranes to it, etc. especially smaller children... so there cannot be any dangerous and long-lingering chemicals in it. I naively thought it is isopropyl alcohol (same chemical as in the rubbing alcohol) with maybe vitamin E added as some bottles claim but that's it. Or given how gelatinous the sanitizer is, could be some other form of alcohol or some benign thickener added to the composition...

Not that it pertains to this case as the alcohol would have long evaporated but is it known if isopropyl alcohol (aka isopropanol) causes blindness, reminiscent of methyl alcohol aka methanol? I'd not think so as isopropanol is 3 times bigger a molecule than methanol and the 2x bigger ethanol is already benign compared to methanol.

I gotta read up on it. I cannot imagine that a chemical from hand sanitizer stayed on hands after 30 minutes in sufficient quantity to then be dissolved in 55 gallons of water and poison fish that bad. Again, it is likely my ignorance but I am shocked enough to start thinking about alternative explanations. As I was reading the original post I was imagining the child squirting sanitizer into the tank in a copious amount...

If this helps theres been recalls, many just a day or two before my incident.
https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-a ... 5a-eng.php

And this is only my household sanitizer, but not the one used, but check the ingredients here too.

Discussed on another group about it too. Someone else had it happen as well, lost a lot of their dwarf chain loaches seems the scaleless fish are especially sensitive to it.

[Viktor Jarikov]

And both you and that someone else have no other fathomable explanation for fish problems... other than the time proximity of the sanitizer use, then hands in the water, then quick onset of fish health problems?

All the ingredients in the sanitizer in the photo are FDA approved and if that sanitizer were to be blamed for contamination 30 minutes after use, I'd be very dubious. I understand the sanitizer in question was different.

I looked at the first page of the recalled sanitizers. They all fall into two categories - the ones containing technical (not medicinal or human) grade ethanol and the others containing another common organic solvent ethyl acetate. Neither ethanol, nor its contaminants arising from ethanol being of technical grade, nor ethyl acetate would stay on human hands longer than a minute, they all have low boiling / evaporation temps.

So I remain perplexed.

[MissNoodle]

And both you and that someone else have no other fathomable explanation for fish problems... other than the time proximity of the sanitizer use, then hands in the water, then quick onset of fish health problems?

All the ingredients in the sanitizer in the photo are FDA approved and if that sanitizer were to be blamed for contamination 30 minutes after use, I'd be very dubious. I understand the sanitizer in question was different.

I looked at the first page of the recalled sanitizers. They all fall into two categories - the ones containing technical (not medicinal or human) grade ethanol and the others containing another common organic solvent ethyl acetate. Neither ethanol, nor its contaminants arising from ethanol being of technical grade, nor ethyl acetate would stay on human hands longer than a minute, they all have low boiling / evaporation temps.

So I remain perplexed.

Yes, they sanitized their hands after opening some packages from Amazon and then did a water change, the first tank they touched had a massive die off. 9 out of their 13 chain loaches died.

And there was no other chemical or problem within my own tank. Kids hands went in and then all went to heck. Despite water change, and carbon, it wasn't enough. Next morning I woke to fish with brain bleeds and eyes severely swollen.
Warning, graphic photo of the deceased fish.

I checked all my parameters in the tank, first thing to check any time things go wrong, ammonia 0 nitrite 0 Nitrate 20 GH 89.5ppm Kh 143ppm pH 7.4

Apparently there's been a string of other incidents with it too.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... virus.html

Theres also some cases of schools closing because of sanitizer problems
https://www.newstalk.com/news/schools-h ... ed-1095118

[Bas Pels]

Looking at the official ingredients, I have troubles clarifying the outcome.

But could it be there are some unofficial ingredients? That is, some waste was willingly introduced into the sanitizer? Criminally, obviously?

[racoll]

Cripes, such an easy mistake to make. Sorry to hear about the fish. Make sure as many people hear about this as possible.

I also find it hard to believe that it's the ethanol, as there will only minute amounts left on the hands after they are are dried, and I doubt it's that toxic in such small quantities after dilution.

Methanol on the other hand I can believe. As little as 30 mL can kill a human. I find it hard to believe that this would be allowed in a product that will be present in most mother's handbags/homes and be easily ingested by a small child.

Could be other trace additives too. The one I have with me contains 2-Benzylideneoctanal (a scent additive I think).

[Bas Pels]

Today I read some compaines producing hand sanitiser in the Netherlands had received warnigs, for not using medical grade ethanol but technical grade.

With regards to Racolls comments, technical grade ethanol can contain methanol - but as methanol vaporises at even less warm temperatures, I wonder whether the eventual methanol could be the cause for Miss Noodle's disaster

[Uncle.Ned]

Even before the pandemic, I had an employee who constantly used hand sanitizer.
Every day he worked, some fish would be dead the next morning.
Practically every day he did not work, no fish would be dead the next morning.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you Ms Noodle, for the helpful links and all you guys too. Hmm, there looks to be definitely something to it.

I'd say it'd be easier for me to believe if the use was recent, like within a minute or a few, and copious, then even the methanol hypothesis might gain traction. In 1 minute at room temp I imagine (perhaps erroneously) there would be no methanol left on one's hands, which would be present in trace amounts to start with anyway.

Methanol boils at 65 C or 149 F.

In 30 min I'd say surely forget methanol = technical grade ethanol hypothesis. It was either something else that doesn't evaporate quickly or at all, maybe the PEG = polyethyleneglycol, or your child (and you?) could have santised your hands first thing at home, no? Don't you do it, now especially during the pandemic, as the first thing as you come home - either sanitize or wash with soap?

Plus in 30 minutes an adult but even more so a child would touch and rub and stick their hands into and over great many objects, clothes, hair, body, etc. and likely wipe off most of whatever non-volatile residue was left.

But all in all, I am thankful you brought this up. I'd not want to take chances or experiment with my fish, even though I have no sanitizer in my fish rooms. Perhaps a really curious homemade scientist would study this issue with feeder fish in the name of reporting the findings and saving a myriad of other pet fish around the world. Do you think this'd be a good idea or would animal rights activists rip such a person a few new ones not seeing the forest for the trees?

It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans. If we are speaking of the usual, non-banned over the counter, government approved hand sanitizers of course... So we shouldn't use personal experience or overall human experience with sanitizers as a guide in thinking this over...

[Lycosid]

It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans.

Well, for us it's on our skin, which is a barrier against chemical harm. For a fish it gets into the gills, which are designed to allow chemicals (primarily oxygen and carbon dioxide, of course) to transfer into the fish's internal organs. I don't know anyone who injects hand sanitizer (or maybe I do and they're just not telling) but I would imagine that would be more comparable.

[MissNoodle]

Interestingly searching ingredients...
We did use some foam based ones at one store prior to coming home which were not alcohol based.

Go to the compound page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzalkonium_chloride

Noted to be toxic

And is actively being used during the pandemic

[Bas Pels]

This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!

[MissNoodle]

This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!

Its even labeled as nontoxic in their listings lol
https://www.sebocanada.ca/product/alcoh ... zer-550ml/

Marketed for schools
https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HT ... em=1434917


But we DID use a foam one that day at the mall.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you so much for this homework.

Overall, it does appear to implicate the seemingly benign surfactant benzalkonium chloride ... albeit it has been used in great many products for consumer eye, mouth, etc. treatment. With the all the info laid out in the foregoing, I fail to propose anything else.

Triclosan is also mentioned along with the benzalkonium but it seems benign to fish, if I read its wikipedia page not too hastily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan

From the benzalkonium page you linked above:

"Especially for its antimicrobial activity, benzalkonium chloride is an active ingredient in many consumer products:
Pharmaceutical products such as eye, ear and nasal drops or sprays, as a preservative
Personal care products such as hand sanitizers, wet wipes, shampoos, soaps, deodorants and cosmetics
Skin antiseptics and wound wash sprays, such as Bactine.[4][5]
Throat lozenges[6] and mouthwashes, as a biocide
Spermicidal creams
Cleaners for floor and hard surfaces as a disinfectant, such as Lysol and Dettol antibacterial spray and wipes.
Algaecides for clearing of algae, moss, lichens from paths, roof tiles, swimming pools, masonry, etc.

Benzalkonium chloride is also used in many non-consumer processes and products, including as an active ingredient in surgical disinfection. A comprehensive list of uses includes industrial applications.[7] An advantage of benzalkonium chloride, not shared by ethanol-based antiseptics or hydrogen peroxide antiseptic, is that it does not cause a burning sensation when applied to broken skin.[citation needed] However, prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.[8]

During the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, from time to time there have been shortages of hand cleaner containing ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients. The FDA has stated that benzalkonium chloride is eligible as an alternative for use in the formulation of healthcare personnel hand rubs.[9] However, in reference to the FDA rule, the CDC states that it does not have a recommended alternative to ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients, and adds that "available evidence indicates benzalkonium chloride has less reliable activity against certain bacteria and viruses than either of the alcohols."[10]"

... But its concentrations may be far smaller than the 0.15% usually used in hand sanitizers... per this:

"Benzalkonium chloride is a frequently used preservative in eye drops; typical concentrations range from 0.004% to 0.01%. Stronger concentrations can be caustic[11] and cause irreversible damage to the corneal endothelium.[12]"

More relevant info from the same page:

"Adverse effects

Although historically benzalkonium chloride has been ubiquitous as a preservative in ophthalmic preparations, its ocular toxicity and irritant properties,[18] in conjunction with consumer demand, have led pharmaceutical companies to increase production of preservative-free preparations, or to replace benzalkonium chloride with preservatives which are less harmful.[citation needed]

Many mass-marketed inhaler and nasal spray formulations contain benzalkonium chloride as a preservative, despite substantial evidence that it can adversely affect ciliary motion, mucociliary clearance, nasal mucosal histology, human neutrophil function, and leukocyte response to local inflammation.[19] Although some studies have found no correlation between use of benzalkonium chloride in concentrations at or below 0.1% in nasal sprays and drug-induced rhinitis,[20] others have recommended that benzalkonium chloride in nasal sprays be avoided.[21][22] In the United States, nasal steroid preparations that are free of benzalkonium chloride include budesonide, triamcinolone acetonide, dexamethasone, and Beconase and Vancenase aerosol inhalers.[19]

Benzalkonium chloride is irritant to middle ear tissues at typically used concentrations. Inner ear toxicity has been demonstrated.[23]

Occupational exposure to benzalkonium chloride has been linked to the development of asthma.[24] In 2011, a large clinical trial designed to evaluate the efficacy of hand sanitizers based on different active ingredients in preventing virus transmission amongst schoolchildren was re-designed to exclude sanitizers based on benzalkonium chloride due to safety concerns.[25]

Benzalkonium chloride has been in common use as a pharmaceutical preservative and antimicrobial since the 1940s. While early studies confirmed the corrosive and irritant properties of benzalkonium chloride, investigations into the adverse effects of, and disease states linked to, benzalkonium chloride have only surfaced during the past 30 years.[citation needed]

Toxicology

RTECS lists the following acute toxicity data:[26]

Organism Route of exposure Dose (LD50)
Rat Intravenous 13.9 mg/kg
Rat Oral 240 mg/kg
Rat Intraperitoneal 14.5 mg/kg
Rat Subcutaneous 400 mg/kg
Mouse Subcutaneous 64 mg/kg

Benzalkonium chloride is a human skin and severe eye irritant.[27] It is a suspected respiratory toxicant, immunotoxicant, gastrointestinal toxicant, and neurotoxicant.[28][29][30]

Benzalkonium chloride formulations for consumer use are dilute solutions. Concentrated solutions are toxic to humans, causing corrosion/irritation to the skin and mucosa, and death if taken internally in sufficient volumes. 0.1% is the maximum concentration of benzalkonium chloride that does not produce primary irritation on intact skin or act as a sensitizer.[31]

Poisoning by benzalkonium chloride is recognised in the literature.[32] A 2014 case study detailing the fatal ingestion of up to 8.1 oz (240ml) of 10% benzalkonium chloride in a 78-year-old male also includes a summary of the currently published case reports of benzalkonium chloride ingestion. While the majority of cases were caused by confusion about the contents of containers, one case cites incorrect pharmacy dilution of benzalkonium chloride as the cause of poisoning of two infants.[33] In 2018 a Japanese nurse was arrested and admitted to having poisoned approximately 20 patients at a hospital in Yokohama by injecting benzalkonium chloride into their intravenous drip bags.[34][35]

Benzalkonium chloride poisoning of domestic pets has been recognised as a result of direct contact with surfaces cleaned with disinfectants using benzalkonium chloride as an active ingredient.[36]"

[Viktor Jarikov]

It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans.

Well, for us it's on our skin, which is a barrier against chemical harm. For a fish it gets into the gills, which are designed to allow chemicals (primarily oxygen and carbon dioxide, of course) to transfer into the fish's internal organs. I don't know anyone who injects hand sanitizer (or maybe I do and they're just not telling) but I would imagine that would be more comparable.

Right. I think I haven't clearly stated my thought. My scenario compares a dose received by a fish from trace sanitizer amounts left on one's hands and then stuck into the fish tank versus the same trace amounts on one's hands making their way through touching into one's eyes, nose, mouth, open cut / wound, etc.

Both trace amounts. Kills fish. Doesn't affect human whatsoever. Hence, the sensitivity thought. Very crude picture admittedly. The doses can be orders of magnitude different after all. A fish may be 10 gram while a human is 60 kg. Etc. My thought could easily be misleading.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Fishman Chemical sells it for fish rooms... If we believe what it did to the OP and others, this sounds like flirting with disaster having it in one's fish room...

https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODU ... .Item.html

$145.00 per Gal.

Benzalkonium Chloride is an antibacterial, anti-viral. Good for sterilization, net dip and disinfectant.
Use 10 ml per gallon for net dip (make sure to rinse the nets before use). Also used to sterilize equipment or aquariums. This is a "very powerful" solution for sterilization. It is soap-like in nature so a good rinse is required after using it.

[MissNoodle]

Fishman Chemical sells it for fish rooms... If we believe what it did to the OP and others, this sounds like flirting with disaster having it in one's fish room...

https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODU ... .Item.html

$145.00 per Gal.

Benzalkonium Chloride is an antibacterial, anti-viral. Good for sterilization, net dip and disinfectant.
Use 10 ml per gallon for net dip (make sure to rinse the nets before use). Also used to sterilize equipment or aquariums. This is a "very powerful" solution for sterilization. It is soap-like in nature so a good rinse is required after using it.

Id run the opposite direction, definitely not something I want around

[kvnbyl]

I use it as a net sanitizer and I purchased it from the source mentioned. I put 3 or 4 ounces in a 5 gal bucket and use it to sterilize nets. I had a problem with ich and it had spread from tank to tank before I realized I had a problem. Then I used dipped the water change hoses in it so as not to infect any more tanks and rinsed the hoses very well before using them for the next tank. I am under the impression it is used in aquariums in very small doses as a medication
Either case I think I will throw it out ( down the drain) and just use methylene blue as a net dip. I suggest you call Fishman Chemical for answers to questions. He is a nice guy and knows a lot about the stuff he sells
I believe He could tell you about the point where a medication turns into a poison
Maybe this is a good time to mention that I believe that a lot of the stuff being sold as "sanitizer ", hand or otherwise needs to be used very carefully