Using sand as substrate

[Reindas]

Hi,

I have several tanks and use use gravel for all but the corys, they have sand. I have notice that the media of said tank need to be cleaned, changed or whatever we all do. And it gets really filthy, not as much as the others. Some how all the detritus found on the gravel on other tanks get to the filter and as I rake the sand to get the gas out, it doesn’t cloud the water.

Does anyone know why is this happening?

Thanks.

[bekateen]

Hi Reindas,

If I understand your problem, I think the answer is that the sand is so compacted, that the detritus doesn't settle down between the sand grains, but rather stays on top of the sand and then gets sucked into the filter so that your filter gets dirty faster than it would in a tank with gravel.
I have that experience.

I will give you a warning. I've killed fish before while stirring sand because it released sulfur gas. If you are smelling rotten eggs or other sulfur smells, or if your sand is thick and you see lots of bubbles coming out, I recommend you stop immediately from stirring the sand and remove all the fish to a bucket so they are not poisoned. After removing fish, then stir the sand and release the gas.

Cheers, Eric

[Reindas]

Hi Eric,

The filter media is not a problem because I can see it’s working. Figured it was good, I didn’t know why, so thanks a lot!

I only have about 1 1/4 inch of sand (3cm). Because the corys move the sand while scavenging for food I guess that causes less gas accumulate, but also I notice that the gas only forms on certain corners of the tank. Anyway I don’t let much time pass between stirring all the sand. Also you level the sand and then in a few days it’s shifts and you get a lot in a corner and little on the other, so I try to keep it the same.

So, is it too much or does it need more sand?

Thanks.

[bekateen]

Three cm of sand is plenty for the corys.

Cheers, Eric

[Reindas]

Perfect, I’m glad no changes are needed.

Thanks!

[bekateen]

Perfect, I’m glad no changes are needed.

Certainly don't add more. Myself, I have very thin sand layers, maybe 1 cm max, sometimes less. But if your fish are healthy and you aren't poisoning them, you should be okay with your setup.

Cheers, Eric

[Reindas]

For what I can see I don’t need to poison them. All I need to do is to clean the sponge filter. I took the sponges out and clean them on fresh water treated with prime several times until the water didn’t cloud. It just took a few minutes, ah but when I put it back. There was one of aeneus belly up dead just under the frame of the filter.

It was an adult, but not older the 2 years. Maybe it got stressed or scared and darted and hit the glass or maybe it was sick and didn’t notice.

Well we all know how it works. Guy see fish and falls in love, takes it home care for it and then no matter what you do, it dies. Is time to get 2 few more now I guess I only have males.

[kvnbyl]

i too have Cory tanks and i use black sand, since i am using it for a foraging place i only use 3/4 of an inch.
i would guess that with a layer that small there is relatively little bio filtration done, also doesn't trap larger particles, in fact they do sit on top of the sand so it makes sense filters would have to work harder.
my experience is that the Cory tanks' canister filter has to be cleaned more often but i'm not sure it's because of the sand thing or because i have probably 75 of them in a 150 gallon tank. on average they seem to be less " dirty" fish but much of that is i think because they tend to be smaller

[Froeschli]

I have about an inch of (pool filter) sand and not noticed any smells or bubbles. How long does it usually take for it to start doing that?
I've been meaning to get some trumpet snails to sift the substrate but not really a fan of snails. And if I add cories, the plecos will likely go on strike....

[bekateen]

I have about an inch of (pool filter) sand and not noticed any smells or bubbles. How long does it usually take for it to start doing that?
I've been meaning to get some trumpet snails to sift the substrate but not really a fan of snails. And if I add cories, the plecos will likely go on strike....

My tanks need a few weeks to build up gas. I don't stir gravel every water change, but I do about once per month.

Trumpet snails will stir the gravel but they'll also take over the tank, and they'll eat cory eggs. I would NOT recommend trumpet snails.

Cheers, Eric

[Froeschli]

Trumpet snails will stir the gravel but they'll also take over the tank, and they'll eat cory eggs. I would NOT recommend trumpet snails.

Cheers, Eric

Good to know. I've only had the sand in there for about a month. Stirred it maybe once, here and there. If I run into issues, i may just have to re-scape the thing so the sand is more accessible for cleaning.

Thanks,

Karin

[TwoTankAmin]

For what it is worth. Unless a substrate is planted or there is something in the tank that burrows, there tends to be insufficient oxygen for aerobic bacteria to thrive as the depth approaches 1 inch. I try to keep my sand depth under 1 inch to prevent issues of anaerobic pockets forming.

Another observation here. I never stir my sand. I do use a tank vac pushed down to the bottom glass every few weeks. This prevents any possible gas from getting into the tank water. The gas goes up the siphon and comes out in the bucket end of the vac hose. It may be stinky, but it is not released into the tank only into the bucket. I have seen the bubbles come out of the sand and go up the tube.

[Reindas]

I have learned a lot here about keeping sand. Thanks a lot. I have a question, when you siphon how do you avoid getting sand on you bucket right?

[bekateen]

I have a question, when you siphon how do you avoid getting sand on you bucket right?

I always get some sand in my bucket. A small amount. I try to wash it back into the tank, but if it's just a small amount, I let it go. Here's a photo (taken right now) of my bucket... sand.

[Reindas]

I'll try that way next time I do it.

Thanks!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have several tanks and use use gravel for all but the corys, they have sand. I have notice that the media of said tank need to be cleaned, changed or whatever we all do. And it gets really filthy, not as much as the others.

That is actually one of the great advantages of sand, all the organic waste sits on top of the substrate.

You need to syphon out the waste, this is really important. Ideally you don't want any bulky organic matter ending up in the filter, you only want oxygen and ammonia entering the filter.

I use the flow pattern to produce an area of low flow where the waste will collect. Put a tile, or piece of slate, in that location and syphon the waste out from on top of it.

For me the real issue is using the filter as a syphon. There is a finite amount of dissolved oxygen that enters the filter, it can't be replenished whilst it is in the filter and you can't see what is happening.

I'd strongly recommend a pre-filter (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45788&p=309846&hili ... el#p309846) on the filter intake to perform all of your mechanical filtration outside of the filter body. I like a large sponge block, of the type sold by our sponsor (https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ad ... ?ad=swiss7).

Trumpet snails will stir the gravel but they'll also ....eat Corydoras eggs.

I'm not sure, all my tanks have a few Malaysian Trumpet Snails and I still have plenty of fish eggs (http://www.swisstropicals.com/filtratio ... -supplies/), but there maybe a lot more that are eaten before I ever see them.

Ingo Seidel (in the "Back to Nature guide to L-Catfish" (https://www.planetcatfish.com/books/boo ... cle_id=371)) mentions using MTS as "egg janitors" and this is from "Manual hatching of..... (https://www.suedamerikafans.de/en/manuelles-ausbrueten/)".

Pond (Lymnaea) and Assassin Snails (Clea) are definitely both great egg eaters.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

I'm not sure, all my tanks have a few Malaysian Trumpet Snails and I still have plenty of fish eggs (http://www.swisstropicals.com/filtratio ... -supplies/), but there maybe a lot more that are eaten before I ever see them.

Ingo Seidel (in the "Back to Nature guide to L-Catfish" (https://www.planetcatfish.com/books/boo ... cle_id=371)) mentions using MTS as "egg janitors" and this is from "Manual hatching of..... (https://www.suedamerikafans.de/en/manuelles-ausbrueten/)".

Pond (Lymnaea) and Assassin Snails (Clea) are definitely both great egg eaters.

There's a whole thread on here about using ramshorn snails as "egg janitors," to adopt that phrase.

MTS don't eat guarded pleco eggs, but I don't know personally if they eat stray loose eggs.

Cheers, Eric

[dw1305]

Hi all,

There's a whole thread on here about using ramshorn snails as "egg janitors," to adopt that phrase.

cheers, Eric

We do (viewtopic.php?t=42862), and, like many on PC, it is an excellent thread.

MTS don't eat guarded pleco eggs, but I don't know personally if they eat stray loose eggs.

That is really what I'm interested in.

My guess (and also based on limited personal experience) is that they don't eat viable eggs.

I'd be interested in whether that is always true or not. This is a quote (from "@Elko" https://www.suedamerikafans.de/)

.......In order to keep the eggs as clean as possible, I put a few trumpet snails (Melanoides tuberculata) in the incubator. These also eat dead eggs and these do not destroy the “living eggs”. Dead eggs are a source of infection and endanger the “good” eggs.......

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Would be good to test thst in the same way we've been collecting data on ramshorn snails. New thread, anybody?
Cheers, Eric

[Reindas]

All I know about ramshorn snails is that I hate them. The first plant I got, came with a bonus. Ramshorn snails, it was an odyssey to get rid of them.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

All I know about ramshorn snails is that I hate them. The first plant I got, came with a bonus. Ramshorn snails, it was an odyssey to get rid of them.

I think a lot of people don't like snails. I've always looked on snails as an asset, and have them (and Asellus aquaticus etc (http://www.nanfa.org/ac/water-louse-live-food.pdf)) in all the tanks.

My suspicion is that, as well as their role in mopping up algae, dead plants and organic debris, there are a lot of intangible assets from keeping snails. That is one of the problems with aquariums and "ecology", there are a lot of variables that aren't easily quantifiable.

There is scientific research to show that snails are really efficient at mopping up biofilms, this is from "A trial on the use of biological aerated filter (BAF) technology for combating the ‘snail problem’" (https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... l_problem')

Since the late 1990s Thames Water UK has experienced snail infestations within a handful of its secondary plastic mineral trickling filters (PMTFs), i.e., filters whose prime purpose is to remove ammonia. At these sites, snails consume biofilm at such a rate as to completely wipe out any autotrophy nitrifying bacteria populations living within the filters.

This is using a "Tadpole Snail" Physa sp.:
"Evaluating the microbial effects of stocking freshwater snails (Physa gyrina) in water reuse systems culturing rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss" (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 18.1541771)

cheers Darrel

[Reindas]

I know the are great at eating algae but they had overrun my tanks and I ended removing over 80 snails daily. Hunting them like a mad man. Finally I relocated the fishes and give the tanks a nice dosis of chlorine. Then I had t re-stablished all the invaded tanks. I’ll just stick with a nerite snails they are far more beautiful and as long as you keep them all males, they are perfect!

Thanks for the information about the louse, I didn’t about them and they are an alternative to be explore.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

........Thanks for the information about the louse, I didn’t about them and they are an alternative to be explore.

I'm not sure what species (if any) you are likely to available to you in Puerto Rico (or N. America).

Asellus aquaticus is a really common species in W. Europe, and any weedy pond etc. is likely to have them.

I collected mine form a pond without any fish in it, but they are one of the type organisms used for in the bioassay of polluted water so you could get ones that were guaranteed to be parasite free, although that is an expensive route to obtain them.

They offer some advantages of Cherry Shrimps (and do the same job), the only disadvantage is they they aren't very aesthetically pleasing.

Over the years I've given away plenty of Asellus, (and Crangonyx pseudogracilis & Lumbriculus) cultures and you can now find all of them available from sellers in the UK on ebay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Asellus-aqua ... 3107231826) etc.

cheers Darrel

[Reindas]

Hi Darrel,

You are right they are not found here at all. That doesn’t mean that someone may have them. But cherry, ghost, amano and some others shrimps are everywhere for purchase for just cents. And are much prettier too.

Thaks

[MarcW]

Thanks for the information on the Asellus aquaticus Darrel, been reading up about them and just ordered some to see how they get on, I'm hoping they will pick away at the debris buildup on my matten filters to extend the intervals between cleaning.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks for the information on the Asellus aquaticus Darrel, been reading up about them and just ordered some to see how they get on, I'm hoping they will pick away at the debris buildup on my matten filters to extend the intervals between cleaning.

They certainly should help clean your Matten filter. There is a bit of research on using them in constructed wetlands. It was inconclusive (https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/002/ ... 001_AC.pdf), but it is quite an interesting read.

If any-one else, in the UK, wants any, I have a bottomless supply (from fish-free conditions). They post really well in damp moss, (in a restaurant "take-way" type container). I use this method to post Asellus, Crangonyx & Lumbriculus, it works much better than posting them in water. I arrived at it serendipitously, because people were finding Asellus in their tanks after I'd sent them some moss.

..... But cherry, ghost, amano and some others shrimps are everywhere for purchase for just cents. And are much prettier too......

Asellus are pretty ugly, but they survive much better than Cherry Shrimps with predatory fish, and perform much the same role.

They will also breed in very soft water, which Cherry shrimps can't do.

cheers Darrel

[MarcW]

I've not had much luck with cherry shrimp, I have one lone survivor from an original group of 10 I was hoping to breed. Good to hear you say that Asellus will breed in soft water, I'm hoping they will for me!

[Reindas]

The problem with the cherry shrimps is the tank you keep them has to be well established and have very, very stable parameters also no predators specially if you intent to breed them. I have killed my share too.