Bristlenose Morphs and Breeding

[Black Orchid]

Hi all,

Does anyone know what the offspring will turn out like if I breed a super red to a normal bristle nose.

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place,

Thanks

[YSR50]

Actually, this was from a Super Red male and an albino female, but the outcome would be the same, ordinary standard color

https://youtu.be/mncoEfmTfzg

[Fundulopanchax76]

Hi ! If albino and super red are carried from recessive genes its not possble their offspring to be original grey - black color !

[Lycosid]

Hi ! If albino and super red are carried from recessive genes its not possble their offspring to be original grey - black color !

Sure it is. They just have to be different genes.
If the super red alleles are N (not super red) and n (super red) and the albino alleles are D (dark) or d (albino) (mind you, I'm making this up as a hypothetical, if it's correct that's accidental) then a super red individual is nnDD/nnDd and an albino individual is NNdd/Nnddd. The nnDD x NNdd cross produces all NnDd individuals, who will be phenotypically "wild type" but will be able to produce either original color morph in the F2 generation.

I think you are assuming that all color alleles are forms of the same gene. In that case no, this wouldn't work.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Sure it is. They just have to be different genes.

@Lycosid is right, all the F1 generation will be "wild type".

You actually can get this even when you breed Albino Common Bristlenose together as there are three different white morphs with, presumably different genes accounting for their loss of pigment.

Have a look at: <Breeding Albino.....viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35416>.

cheers Darrel

[Lycosid]

Do we have a good genetic explanation for bristlenose morphs or is this uninvestigated? I ask because I suspect that this forum would be the place to gather useful data that would get us closer towards a good genetic hypothesis.

[Fundulopanchax76]

If alleles for albino and red are recessive so to be one fish albino or red that means that it has noone dark gene which is supposed to be dominant ! So you cant cross two fish not possesing dark allele and their cross to be black ! If dark allele exist in albino or red fish but is suppresed in some way that will explane emerging of dark fish in the offspring but that has to be proved.

[Adam S]

Albino is on a different locus than super red or wild/brown. There is no "dark gene;" rather, wild/brown is the lack of modifying genes (super red, green dragon, yellow, etc.) at the locus for color. All of the color modifiers that come to mind are recessive. Crossing albino and super red will result in 100% brown fish with single doses of super red and albino.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Albino is on a different locus than super red or wild/brown. There is no "dark gene;" rather, wild/brown is the lack of modifying genes (super red, green dragon, yellow, etc.) at the locus for color. All of the color modifiers that come to mind are recessive. Crossing albino and super red will result in 100% brown fish with single doses of super red and albino.

That one.

The assumption is that the F0 albino fish is homozygous recessive for the albino (allele) gene (dd) and homozygous dominant for the leucistic "gene" (NN).

The F0 red fish is homozygous recessive for leucistic gene (nn) and homozygous dominant for the albino gene (DD).

All the F1 fish will be heterozygous ("Dd" and "Nn"). If you got albino off-spring in the F1 the red parent was heterozygous (Dd). I'm going to assume that if fish are albino recessive that that precludes them from having any pigment, whatever the alleles are at the locus for "colour".

Do we have a good genetic explanation for bristlenose morphs or is this uninvestigated? I ask because I suspect that this forum would be the place to gather useful data that would get us closer towards a good genetic hypothesis.

There is a post somewhere from a long time ago, that was where I remembered the "three different types of albinism" from, but I can't re-find it.

Milton Tan (@Suckermouth) was going to write an article on Bristlenose genetics, but I don't think he ever did.

cheers Darrel

[Black Orchid]

Some great responses, thanks all

[Lycosid]

There is a post somewhere from a long time ago, that was where I remembered the "three different types of albinism" from, but I can't re-find it.

Milton Tan (@Suckermouth) was going to write an article on Bristlenose genetics, but I don't think he ever did.

I suspect I can track down information on albinism in actinopterygiid fish in general, but a quick search on Google Scholar isn't turning up anything on albinism in Ancistrus.

Would an article on this topic be of interest to the community, do you think? I am willing to start a thread to gather breeding records and attempt to put that into a plausible genetic framework if this is something people would feel was valuable.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

.......I suspect I can track down information on albinism in actinopterygiid fish in general, but a quick search on Google Scholar isn't turning up anything on albinism in Ancistrus.

Would an article on this topic be of interest to the community, do you think? I am willing to start a thread to gather breeding records and attempt to put that into a plausible genetic framework if this is something people would feel was valuable.

I think people would be interested.

There is plenty of work on the genetics of Danio rerio, I'm not sure about access (I can access it via work) to <"Zebrafish Stripes as a Model for Vertebrate Colour Pattern Formation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2214014407">, but it might be a starting point.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Would an article on this topic be of interest to the community, do you think? I am willing to start a thread to gather breeding records and attempt to put that into a plausible genetic framework if this is something people would feel was valuable.

Yes I'd like to read it too. And unrelated, but also if there were any genetic/physiological explanation for the regulation of temporary luteinism in color changing plecos (hormonal? dietary? etc).

cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

You can write everything I know about genetics on that little piece of paper you get inside a Fortune Cookie. But there is one fascinating area of fish genetics I came across years ago when I was keeping X. montezumae. I stumbled onto Xiphophorus Genetic Stock Center site. This is what I read that has stayed with me for years:

Several of the original genetic strains of platyfish and swordtails developed by Dr. Gordon in the 1930s are still available today; they are virtual genetic clones, the products in some cases of more than 100 generations of brother-to-sister matings. The XGSC is one of the oldest live-animal resource centers in the world. It surprises even many scientists that one of the oldest and best-defined groups of model organisms are livebearing fishes of the genus Xiphophorus, the platyfishes and swordtails familiar to the tropical fish hobbyist.

If you are interested, http://www.xiphophorus.txstate.edu/

My experience with bristlenose genetics is that it is mostly impossible for certain to know enough about the genetic history of any given pair to be able to predict what their offspring will look like. I had albino long fins that would only throw browns (both regular and long fin). But when they matured they threw 25% regular fin albinos.

[Suckermouth]

Milton Tan (@Suckermouth) was going to write an article on Bristlenose genetics, but I don't think he ever did.

cheers Darrel

Wow, the Internet never forgets! Yeah, that article never got written, but I suspect it wouldn't do much better than collecting information online or from the forum. There is no scientific research on the color development of Ancistrus.

As noted, if the genes responsible for different colors are different genes, than the other color morph will have the wild type allele that will compensate for it. This has been demonstrated with the albinism in Mexican cave tetra populations, which can be different depending on the population. As such, you can hybridize members of different cave tetra populations and get non-albino offspring. So even a single phenotype can be changed by different genes, and this could certainly be the case in Ancistrus as well. It gets even more complicated when you start throwing in other color forms. While it is possible different alleles in the same gene could cause alternative color morphs, as others have already noted it appears most likely that it's just different genes responsible for different color morphs. Teasing this apart can be done by simple cross-breeding experiments as Mendel did with peas.

Would an article on this topic be of interest to the community, do you think? I am willing to start a thread to gather breeding records and attempt to put that into a plausible genetic framework if this is something people would feel was valuable.

For aquarists that are interested in this sort of thing, certainly compiling results of such cross-breeding experiments would be valuable. Without data we're all just hypothesizing.

And unrelated, but also if there were any genetic/physiological explanation for the regulation of temporary luteinism in color changing plecos (hormonal? dietary? etc).

As far as I know, there is still no scientific research into this...

[Fundulopanchax76]

So my first batch albino fry are free swimming and sucking on the glasses ofthe tank. And they all are albino !

[bekateen]

Congratulations!

Cheers, Eric