I know this is a catfish forum but there seems to be some very qualified people here in tackling problems with fish so I dedided to give it a shot ( sorry)
This is regarding my inability to keep rams.
Tank: 55g
Nh 0
No2 0
No3 <5
Weekly 50% waterchanges
Ph7.8
Gh 9
temp 82
Fish: 6 L-46(zebra plecos) 6 L-260 (queen arabesque plecos) 1 female guppy(haven't been able to fish her out) 4 apisto borelli and the now lone male Ram
Filtration is 2 powerheads w prefilter about 150gph each, Via Aqua 750 cannister 317 gph Aquaclear 500, 300 and Fluval 104.
Black fine gravel /coarse sand , slate, flowerpots, plastic plants and a few pieces of wood.
I feed a rotation of the following Aquadine flakes (mix of all purpose, carnevoir, spirulina and veg), frozen- mysis, bloodworms, brineshrimp, shrimp, daphnia and occasionaly live blackworms.
I started with 3 or 4 fish of 1.5" and added 12 more 1" fish last fall. They have steadily been dying. The last 3 seem to have succumbed to popeye and mild bloat.
No other fish in the tank has been sick and no intros into the tank in 3 months.
Fish were from 2 different sources : store and hobby bred.
Is it possible that I will never be able to keep rams? I have tried them several times and they never make it.
Is the water crucial? - I am thinking the ph and Gh may be too high but I can't say any other fish have been this delicate.
Any input appretiated.
I should also mention what I have tried in the past:
-1/3 water changes daily, kept the fish alive but no improvement
-Kanacyn, mild antibiotic(I think) also kept the fish alive with no improvement
-Melafix - no result
-salt - no result
- warmer water - no result
- maracyn & maracyn 2 in combination - no improvement but too harsh and led to death
Fish are dying
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spiny
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Soory to hear about your Rams.
Rams (Microgeophagus ramirezi) are very delicate fish, and might easily die before being acclimatized. They come from the Llanos/"Savannah" of Venezuela, in/around the Orinocos middle and lower parts, and the Rio Meta. You will mostly find it in pools. The total hardness in its habitat is very low, normally less than 25 microsiemens (conductivity). The ph is found to be from 5,5 to a bit above 6 (6,4). You will need some sheltered spots, to make the fishes feel safe; plants/treeroots etc.
Wild caught specimens do not adapt as easily as their offspring. You do not necessarily need to keep the water as acidic as in its habitat, but they should thrive in neutral water. As I see it, your water is too hard and alkaline for the Rams. It is possible to get the ph down by the help of either; rainwater (near neutral but soft, then easier to get the ph further down), chemicals from your LFS, treeroots, or dry Oakleaves on the bottom (lasts up to 3 months). Only treeroots and leaves will not help much in the water you have at the moment.
When putting new fishes into your tank, you should gradually over a period of an hour change water from your tank inti the fish-bag, to get it used to your water. When I do this with my fish, they swim around at once, instead of keeping its nose in a corner for 2 days.
Another tip is to change either one third, or two thirds of the water, not half. This to avoid problems with ammonia, when changing water, due to possible changes in the ph values.
Good luck!
Rams (Microgeophagus ramirezi) are very delicate fish, and might easily die before being acclimatized. They come from the Llanos/"Savannah" of Venezuela, in/around the Orinocos middle and lower parts, and the Rio Meta. You will mostly find it in pools. The total hardness in its habitat is very low, normally less than 25 microsiemens (conductivity). The ph is found to be from 5,5 to a bit above 6 (6,4). You will need some sheltered spots, to make the fishes feel safe; plants/treeroots etc.
Wild caught specimens do not adapt as easily as their offspring. You do not necessarily need to keep the water as acidic as in its habitat, but they should thrive in neutral water. As I see it, your water is too hard and alkaline for the Rams. It is possible to get the ph down by the help of either; rainwater (near neutral but soft, then easier to get the ph further down), chemicals from your LFS, treeroots, or dry Oakleaves on the bottom (lasts up to 3 months). Only treeroots and leaves will not help much in the water you have at the moment.
When putting new fishes into your tank, you should gradually over a period of an hour change water from your tank inti the fish-bag, to get it used to your water. When I do this with my fish, they swim around at once, instead of keeping its nose in a corner for 2 days.
Another tip is to change either one third, or two thirds of the water, not half. This to avoid problems with ammonia, when changing water, due to possible changes in the ph values.
Good luck!
Bjorn H S
"Oh, uh, this..the moon is in the wrong position!"
Ozzy Osbourne
"Oh, uh, this..the moon is in the wrong position!"
Ozzy Osbourne
Rams dying...
Hiya,
I have also tried keeping Bolivian Rams and to no avail. I have one left that has survived my extremely hard water. I did research AFTER I bought them and found that they need soft water. Ive given up on them and just added them to my list of "Can't keeps" because of my hard water. I do have one that lived, but he hasn't grown much and his colour isn't great, but otherwise he's happy and swimming around and eating.
Sucks when your fish start dying and can't figure out why. Just went through that myself. It will get better, hang in there!!! Good luck.
Angela
I have also tried keeping Bolivian Rams and to no avail. I have one left that has survived my extremely hard water. I did research AFTER I bought them and found that they need soft water. Ive given up on them and just added them to my list of "Can't keeps" because of my hard water. I do have one that lived, but he hasn't grown much and his colour isn't great, but otherwise he's happy and swimming around and eating.
Sucks when your fish start dying and can't figure out why. Just went through that myself. It will get better, hang in there!!! Good luck.
Angela
The world is like a giant fish tank, we are all swimming around trying to make our way in the world, and someone is always watching.....
Thanks Spiny - grew up in Sthlm .
I have noticed that they are very sensative to pollutants in the water - if you ever try to introduce them into a new tank they are goners for sure. Your explanation has helped a great deal. I read somewhere that the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite increases dramatically with higher ph and the signs on the fish (bloat, popeye ,etc) seem to dictate just that - eventhough the tests check out OK.
Thanks Angela, it helps hearing explanations and confirmations to what I thought was the case. I think that if I attempt it again it will have to be with either part rainwater or RO water along with peat, plants and roots.
As for now I am probably aborting project Ram.
I have noticed that they are very sensative to pollutants in the water - if you ever try to introduce them into a new tank they are goners for sure. Your explanation has helped a great deal. I read somewhere that the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite increases dramatically with higher ph and the signs on the fish (bloat, popeye ,etc) seem to dictate just that - eventhough the tests check out OK.
Thanks Angela, it helps hearing explanations and confirmations to what I thought was the case. I think that if I attempt it again it will have to be with either part rainwater or RO water along with peat, plants and roots.
As for now I am probably aborting project Ram.
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Barbie
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Hiya,
I was a ram killing machine, until I finally came upon this method of keeping them that has worked well for me, in everything from liquid rock water, to very soft water. It seems to make a HUGE difference for rams if you preage their water. I bought a 40 gallon trash can at home depot, and I run a tiny microjet powerhead and a heater in it. In Kansas City, with a kH of 17 degrees, and a gH of 25 plus degrees, I added acid buffer to try to pull it down, but you just can't budge it. Just having the water stabilized before I added it to the tank made a HUGE difference in my success with rams. When I moved to Anchorage, the water was 3 degrees of kH, a big change, but I found the rams STILL didn't thrive and do well without the preaged water. Discus also do better with aged and stabilized water, IMO, so I just did all of their water changes with water I aged first. With a kH that low, I could add 1/4 teaspoon of acid buffer to 40 gallons and have the pH down below 7 overnight, and stable there. I loved it, and the fish did well.
I moved back down to Spokane in May, where the kH is 7 degrees, the gH is 9, and rams were on one of my first fish orders. I set up a 40 gallon long tank, and had planted it. I do 30% water changes on it every 2 weeks (if I go every week I get cyanobacteria from the lack of nitrates and excess phosphates in our tap water), and I still have all 6 rams that I originally purchased. All I do is age the water, and add a bit of acid buffer for two days. It usually doesn't actually lower the pH, but the tank is CO2 injected and it seems to pull it down enough it can keep it stable at 7.2 or so. This is one of my boys...
Try aging the water first. You'll be amazed by how much better they do, honestly.
Barbie
I was a ram killing machine, until I finally came upon this method of keeping them that has worked well for me, in everything from liquid rock water, to very soft water. It seems to make a HUGE difference for rams if you preage their water. I bought a 40 gallon trash can at home depot, and I run a tiny microjet powerhead and a heater in it. In Kansas City, with a kH of 17 degrees, and a gH of 25 plus degrees, I added acid buffer to try to pull it down, but you just can't budge it. Just having the water stabilized before I added it to the tank made a HUGE difference in my success with rams. When I moved to Anchorage, the water was 3 degrees of kH, a big change, but I found the rams STILL didn't thrive and do well without the preaged water. Discus also do better with aged and stabilized water, IMO, so I just did all of their water changes with water I aged first. With a kH that low, I could add 1/4 teaspoon of acid buffer to 40 gallons and have the pH down below 7 overnight, and stable there. I loved it, and the fish did well.
I moved back down to Spokane in May, where the kH is 7 degrees, the gH is 9, and rams were on one of my first fish orders. I set up a 40 gallon long tank, and had planted it. I do 30% water changes on it every 2 weeks (if I go every week I get cyanobacteria from the lack of nitrates and excess phosphates in our tap water), and I still have all 6 rams that I originally purchased. All I do is age the water, and add a bit of acid buffer for two days. It usually doesn't actually lower the pH, but the tank is CO2 injected and it seems to pull it down enough it can keep it stable at 7.2 or so. This is one of my boys...
Try aging the water first. You'll be amazed by how much better they do, honestly.
Barbie
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Picklefish
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On the aging water note...For all my tanks, cats included, I purchased a 100G stock tank for $70 that I use to age/treat all my W/C water..All my critters look good. These tanks are by Rubbermaid and can be purchased at most Fee and Seed stores. Just a thought for low cost bulk water storage. They also sell a 300G round model that I plan to get a few of and relocate some of the fish outdoors this summer. HTH
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Shane
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I'll weigh in on this one since I have collected about a bizillion of these guys. Wild rams are about one of the most sensitive fishes you can keep or collect. The best that I have ever managed in the field, even with multiple daily water changes, was to get a little more than half of the rams I collected back home. The two main killers are heat and low oxygen which makes sense since the two things are related. I do not know why they are so sensitive though because towards the end of the dry season they live in some VERY disgusting waters that would kill just about any other fish. The evaporation of their charcos (pools) leaves them living in very hot, very polluted, hard waters. Do this to them in a tank and they will drop like flys.
Spiny's information is mostly correct, but I want to add a couple of points. One, I have never seen waters with a pH of 5.5 in the llanos. That would be a fairly extreme blackwater habitat. In the llanos there is only white water (like coffee with milk) and clear waters around morichales (springs). The average pH is closer to 6.5 to 7.2 depending on the amount of driftwood and local types of rocks. Hardness can range from nearly undetectable during the rainy season to quite hard as the small pools evaporate in the sun after the rains have left for the year.
In the aquarium, they will do best in the low to upper 70s. 82 seems too high for me for most fishes unless you are after a spawning. 7.8 pH is a little high, but they should adapt. Large frequent water changes are very important and rams will start dying quickly if you skip a week. Barbie's idea about aging the water would also certainly be worth a try. Rams are also found in very still water. A large sponge filter works best for them. Last but not least, quarantine them for a very long time (like 6-8 weeks) before adding them to an established tank. They come in in bad shape and really need that special attention to get their health back before they are placed in competition with other fishes.
Typical ram habitat
Spiny's information is mostly correct, but I want to add a couple of points. One, I have never seen waters with a pH of 5.5 in the llanos. That would be a fairly extreme blackwater habitat. In the llanos there is only white water (like coffee with milk) and clear waters around morichales (springs). The average pH is closer to 6.5 to 7.2 depending on the amount of driftwood and local types of rocks. Hardness can range from nearly undetectable during the rainy season to quite hard as the small pools evaporate in the sun after the rains have left for the year.
In the aquarium, they will do best in the low to upper 70s. 82 seems too high for me for most fishes unless you are after a spawning. 7.8 pH is a little high, but they should adapt. Large frequent water changes are very important and rams will start dying quickly if you skip a week. Barbie's idea about aging the water would also certainly be worth a try. Rams are also found in very still water. A large sponge filter works best for them. Last but not least, quarantine them for a very long time (like 6-8 weeks) before adding them to an established tank. They come in in bad shape and really need that special attention to get their health back before they are placed in competition with other fishes.
Typical ram habitat
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First I want to thank all and everyone for the replies.
Eventhough this is a catfish forum you have helped me very much and not scolded me for bringing up the unthinkable ( cichlids)
It has given me a lot of perspective on keeping some fish like rams but also the though of other species and the difficulties of making them thrive.
To address the responses:
Picklefish:
how do the sides hold up in that vat? I have a 58gal container that has the sides bow out when partially filled. It was supposed to be a curing bin for liverock and for cycling sand and baserock for SW which ended up never happening so it is now home to feeders and also a sortof quarantine tank. I would like to replace it with something more sturdy though, any links?
Shane-
thanks for the input. I have posted this question on several boards and one of the most interesting answers that seemed to make sense was about osmotic pressure and the effect of hard water on softwater fish. I have read many posts of rams thriving in hard water with higher PH but must wonder for how long? As I have not had much luck personally in keeping rams in hard, alkaline water I must assume that those reports were about short term expsure such as in an evaporated pool.Perhaps the rainy season cures the ills of the stagnant pool? Or is there something else?
Barbie-
thank you for sharing your knowledge once again. I think you commented on my previous loss and now once again. I value your input as your comments have helped me take care of problems in the past and have just a couple of questions: When you mention "aging" the water. What exactly happens to the water when you age it? I am thinking that the chlorine and chloramine dissapears but so would be the case with water conditioners. Any purification of the water would have to involve filters ( diatome , UV or Carbon), plants or exposure to fish and/or bacteria to start producing helpful bacteria, right? Or is there something else that I am unaware of?
Just curious.
Thanks again everyone , this website is once again golden for information.
Eventhough this is a catfish forum you have helped me very much and not scolded me for bringing up the unthinkable ( cichlids)
It has given me a lot of perspective on keeping some fish like rams but also the though of other species and the difficulties of making them thrive.
To address the responses:
Picklefish:
how do the sides hold up in that vat? I have a 58gal container that has the sides bow out when partially filled. It was supposed to be a curing bin for liverock and for cycling sand and baserock for SW which ended up never happening so it is now home to feeders and also a sortof quarantine tank. I would like to replace it with something more sturdy though, any links?
Shane-
thanks for the input. I have posted this question on several boards and one of the most interesting answers that seemed to make sense was about osmotic pressure and the effect of hard water on softwater fish. I have read many posts of rams thriving in hard water with higher PH but must wonder for how long? As I have not had much luck personally in keeping rams in hard, alkaline water I must assume that those reports were about short term expsure such as in an evaporated pool.Perhaps the rainy season cures the ills of the stagnant pool? Or is there something else?
Barbie-
thank you for sharing your knowledge once again. I think you commented on my previous loss and now once again. I value your input as your comments have helped me take care of problems in the past and have just a couple of questions: When you mention "aging" the water. What exactly happens to the water when you age it? I am thinking that the chlorine and chloramine dissapears but so would be the case with water conditioners. Any purification of the water would have to involve filters ( diatome , UV or Carbon), plants or exposure to fish and/or bacteria to start producing helpful bacteria, right? Or is there something else that I am unaware of?
Just curious.
Thanks again everyone , this website is once again golden for information.