the illegal pleco list

[Uncle.Ned]

the illegal pleco list
...probably a partial list...
(according to a Belem, Brazil shippers recent list, Feb 9, 2010)

...possibly also some mistakes
I think we just got some 264 without a problem

L-002 new tiger forbidden

L-024 super king scarlet tucurui -blood forbidden
L-024 super king scarlet tucurui -red forbidden
L_024 king scarlet forbidden

L-025 Sao felix red forbidden
L-025 ultra scarlet forbidden

L-027 tocantins yellow panaque forbidden

L-027 Xingu panaque forbidden
L-027 Xingu panaque platina royal forbidden

L-031 blue spot globo (white spot peppermint pleco) forbidden

L-064 acari spinyo marajó forbidden
L-064 acari spinyo-tocantins forbidden

L-066 king royal forbidden

L-124 Tapajos spot tiger forbidden

L-160 orange trin (spiny monster pleco) forbidden

L-260 lapilis king royal (queen arabesques) forbidden

L-262 Pimental pigmented (fine spotted pleco) forbidden

L-264 leporacanthicus joselimae forbidden

L-271 panagolus sp-red tiger xingu forbidden

L-273 titanic I black forbidden
L-273 titanic II super red-alto tapajos forbidden

L-333 new alenquer forbidden
L-333 new gold xingu forbidden
L-333 special-porto de moz forbidden

hmm, why would he list them, if he can't ship them?

[Janne]

I don't know from whom you got the list but it's not from us anyway, following species is allowed to export from them you mentioned.
L-124 Tapajos spot tiger, is the same as L75 Peckoltia sabaji.
L-264 leporacanthicus joselimae

Following species will be allowed under 2010 but is not yet allowed.
L-025 Sao felix red
L-025 ultra scarlet
L-027 Xingu panaque (possible that all L27 will be allowed but that we will know when Ibama publish the new positiv list)
L-027 Xingu panaque platina royal
L-066 king royal
L-333 new gold xingu
L-333 special-porto de moz

All other species you mention are forbidden and will be forbidden at least until 2011.

Janne

[matthewfaulkner]

Following species will be allowed under 2010 but is not yet allowed.

L-027 Xingu panaque (possible that all L27 will be allowed but that we will know when Ibama publish the new positiv list)
L-027 Xingu panaque platina royal

Janne

Really!? Thats great news (for me at least).

[dconnors]

Any idea when the IBAMA will publish a new positive list

[DutchFry]

Janne, are you sure? is Pseudacanthicus sp. L025 going to be allowed for export again!?

that's the best news I've heard in a while! because I really want to get a nice group of them in the future!

and what about L273, any news on that?

oh and edit, why is L046 not on the forbidden list?

[Uncle.Ned]

Janne,
please email me your list...
details below

do you already ship to someone in the US?

very interested in c i c h l i d s and tetras also

[Janne]

Any idea when the IBAMA will publish a new positive list

The new list is ready and waiting to be signed of the ministerie for development of nature resources... after it's signed (which will take some more time) and official published it will be legal to export around 600 species/genus which is an increase of around 120 species/genus from the last positive list, we don't know exactly yet how they devide the species with L-numbers, if they will make the same as the last for example with Peckoltia where almost all L-numbers are allowed, yes they use the L-number system and Ibama are making a book with photos for the custom and Ibama people that check the species at the airports before export.

Janne, are you sure? is Pseudacanthicus sp. L025 going to be allowed for export again!?

Yes.

and what about L273, any news on that?

No.

oh and edit, why is L046 not on the forbidden list?

It's on the Brazilian endangered list of species and can not be more forbidden than that.

Janne

[Proteus]

What about the L260 is it going to be allowed again?

[Proteus]

and the L264 is in danger of being banned? I'll be very sad

[whiteymoza]

I don't know from whom you got the list but it's not from us anyway, following species is allowed to export from them you mentioned.
L-124 Tapajos spot tiger, is the same as L75 Peckoltia sabaji.
L-264 leporacanthicus joselimae

Following species will be allowed under 2010 but is not yet allowed.
L-025 Sao felix red
L-025 ultra scarlet
L-027 Xingu panaque (possible that all L27 will be allowed but that we will know when Ibama publish the new positiv list)
L-027 Xingu panaque platina royal
L-066 king royal
L-333 new gold xingu
L-333 special-porto de moz

All other species you mention are forbidden and will be forbidden at least until 2011.

Janne

Have you got a source for this information and any idea when? I thought the ban was going to be permanent, does this mean even after this even more species will gradually be taken off the list? Il be VERY happy when I can get L066 again!

Iv had difficulty finding any decent L nos on availability lists even those that haven’t been banned and most of the prices are INSANE although that may be a seasonal thing more than anything.

[MatsP]

Janne is working closely with IBAMA (the "Brazilian nature protection agency") in Brazil, so he's probably got more insight than all other members of this forum altogether. And I'm pretty sure Janne or someone else stated when the export ban was first instated that it was a "coarse measure to allow gathering of data as to the sustainability of export", and when data had been collected the list would be re-assessed.

It's easier to find Orinoco basin Hypancistrus, as they are not illegal to export. Brazilian fish is quite hard to get, as you say. Some species will become easier to get next season (for most of them, it's too late this year, as the dry season is pretty much coming to the end, and dry-season is when most fish are collected).

--
Mats

[Janne]

And I'm pretty sure Janne or someone else stated when the export ban was first instated that it was a "coarse measure to allow gathering of data as to the sustainability of export", and when data had been collected the list would be re-assessed.

Yea, or we can put the reason to ban like this... None of these species have never been legal to export, they have been forbidden all the time except 1 species, H. zebra that was allowed.
The trade was without control and everyone was shipping everything that looked like a pleco, no one knew anything about these species, no names not the size of populations or if there was endemic local species in very small localities etc. Ibama got a new boss and some new employes that announced that from now on all these already forbidden species are really forbidden to export until we have any studys showing if there is possible to allowe some of them in the future.

2008 Ibama and several researchers investigated Rio xingu, now some of these species will be allowed "again", then they make the next river etc. in the future more species will be added to the positive and legal list for export.

Janne

[Science8]

Hi there,

Any update on this topic?

[TwoTankAmin]

oh and edit, why is L046 not on the forbidden list?


It's on the Brazilian endangered list of species and can not be more forbidden than that.

That is a JOKE- the only thing endangering the zebra pleco is the Brazilian government.

[Bas Pels]

However, as the Brasilian government is very effective in endangeirng the zebra, the zebra is highly endangered

But you are right, collecting them for export will not efect the species - as it is doomed

[blueblue]

Exactly!! Everyone knows after the dams are constructed, all zebra plecos in Rio Xingu will probably die, together with the popular fish such as L27, L25, L14, etc !!

oh and edit, why is L046 not on the forbidden list?


It's on the Brazilian endangered list of species and can not be more forbidden than that.

That is a JOKE- the only thing endangering the zebra pl*co is the Brazilian government.

[blueblue]

Hi Janne, as an insider and also an expert, do you have any updates on this whole thing? Has it been changed after the dam project is formally given green light?

And I'm pretty sure Janne or someone else stated when the export ban was first instated that it was a "coarse measure to allow gathering of data as to the sustainability of export", and when data had been collected the list would be re-assessed.

Yea, or we can put the reason to ban like this... None of these species have never been legal to export, they have been forbidden all the time except 1 species, H. zebra that was allowed.
The trade was without control and everyone was shipping everything that looked like a pl*co, no one knew anything about these species, no names not the size of populations or if there was endemic local species in very small localities etc. Ibama got a new boss and some new employes that announced that from now on all these already forbidden species are really forbidden to export until we have any studys showing if there is possible to allowe some of them in the future.

2008 Ibama and several researchers investigated Rio xingu, now some of these species will be allowed "again", then they make the next river etc. in the future more species will be added to the positive and legal list for export.

Janne

[taksan]

In the meantime all of Brazil "banned" plecos are happily making their way along the river to Peru where they can still be shipped away from the mortal danger of being under the Brazilian government's jurisdiction.

[Janne]

That is a JOKE- the only thing endangering the zebra pl*co is the Brazilian government.

True but together with the illegal trade of this species because even if we think it will be extinct after the dam's are built we will not know for sure if they can survive or not, in the meantime many hundreds are illegal caught and smuggled out every week from Brazil under the dry season. The problem maybe not are so much that illegal species are caught, the illegal trade itself is a huge problem for the business in large not only in Brazil and will make it more difficult for the future with new rules and laws, the whole business are seen and will be seen as something bad.

Exactly!! Everyone knows after the dams are constructed, all zebra plecos in Rio Xingu will probably die, together with the popular fish such as L27, L25, L14, etc !!

Not all species will be affected, no problem for L14, L25 and L27 but for many species endemic to the big bend like most Hypancistrus and some large tetras and cichlids.

Hi Janne, as an insider and also an expert, do you have any updates on this whole thing? Has it been changed after the dam project is formally given green light?

Brazil has a very big bureaucracy and the knowledge is very low concerning fish species in general except large foodfish, their should have been a meeting yesterday in Brasilia and we expect that the new positive list will soon be published. There will be species both from Rio Xingu and Rio Tapajos and maybe even Rio Tocantins allowed that before have been forbidden, it's just to wait and see what happens.

This year have been filled with problems, new rules for both fishermen and supplying companies making it very difficult for many exporters. Even with a new positive list with many new species allowed it will still be very difficult for many exporters to survive, from last year until now maybe 50% of all exporters have closed their companies.

Janne

[littlebristlenose]

Any idea when the IBAMA will publish a new positive list

The new list is ready and waiting to be signed of the ministerie for development of nature resources... after it's signed (which will take some more time) and official published it will be legal to export around 600 species/genus which is an increase of around 120 species/genus from the last positive list, we don't know exactly yet how they devide the species with L-numbers, if they will make the same as the last for example with Peckoltia where almost all L-numbers are allowed, yes they use the L-number system and Ibama are making a book with photos for the custom and Ibama people that check the species at the airports before export.

Janne, are you sure? is Pseudacanthicus sp. L025 going to be allowed for export again!?

Yes.

and what about L273, any news on that?

No.

oh and edit, why is L046 not on the forbidden list?

It's on the Brazilian endangered list of species and can not be more forbidden than that.

Janne

Janne,
You mentioned a book, is this in English, and is it available for the General public to buy,the government their would make more money on book sales, than some other areas of the trade.

[Ltygress]

In the meantime all of Brazil "banned" plecos are happily making their way along the river to Peru where they can still be shipped away from the mortal danger of being under the Brazilian government's jurisdiction.

Forgive me for ressurecting an old thread. I was doing research online about plecos and came across this thread in my search. I know it's SEVERAL years old, but I wanted to point out a problem.

The statement above is NOT entirely true. ACTUALLY, it may not be true at all. For example, the zebra plecos DO NOT EXIST outside of the Xingu river, and thus would not be found in Peru where the Amazon river itself is located. The xingu river - a tributary of the amazon - is ENTIRELY in Brazil. Yet there has been one user I have spoken with on AquaBid.com recently who claimed he got his "wild caught" zebras from Peru.

I've never seen more crap outside of a baby's diaper. His source was smuggling them, and after talking with him some more, he admitted it. He's also been banned from Aquabid for it - at least under that account. I'm sure he made a new one.

Plecos are indeed familiar with the high currents of a giant river. But it is NOT very often that fish will actually try to move upstream for any reason (except Salmon). Yet Peru's portion of the Amazon river is UPSTREAM from Brazil's portion. The Amazon river STARTS around Peru, but it flows INTO Brazil, and then into the Atlantic ocean. So why would plecos be fighting the currents to move to smaller and more-shallow waters (common sense - rivers grow the further downstream you get)? They most likely don't.

And for Xingu river plecos (or any fish) to be found in Peru, is almost unheard of. They would have to go downstream from Xingu to the Amazon, and THEN back upstream to the Peru portion of the Amazon. That makes absolutely ZERO sense.

I'm not saying it's impossible to find plecos in Peru. I'm saying it's MOST LIKELY an excuse for smugglers who are taking them out of Brazil to get away with what they are doing. And it's DEFINITELY a way for illegal smugglers to get them shipped into the U.S. legally - by claiming they didn't come from Brazil at all. Don't be fooled by this. When the authorities come looking for the guys who smuggled them, and YOU PURCHASED THOSE FISH, you better pray that those smugglers didn't keep your contact information or they'll come for you too!

Let the rest of us do our work with these fish, attempting to breed them in captivity, so you can buy them legally. Don't risk your life and/or freedom for a cool-looking fish that someone smuggled out illegally.

[PseudaSmart]

Interesting choice for a first post. There is little value in this 5 year old thread.
I'm only commenting to clarify the subtle inference of Taksan's post. They were referring to them being taken out of the country by boat to Peru to be sold.

[Jools]

Indeed, and the clarification is right. I'm just back from the Xingu BTW, there are plecos there that are found nowhere else and there are plecos there that are found in other countries. However, the majority are not.

BTW, you should see the Pseudacanthicus I found there. It is one ugly fish.

Jools

[CharlieM9]

Indeed, and the clarification is right. I'm just back from the Xingu BTW, there are plecos there that are found nowhere else and there are plecos there that are found in other countries. However, the majority are not.

BTW, you should see the Pseudacanthicus I found there. It is one ugly fish.

Jools

When do we get to see a picture of its ugly mug Jools?

[Jools]

Soon I hope, but I've come back to a lot of work (the type that pays bills) and there is a LOT of video and images to work through.

Jools

[Scleropages]

I'm just back from the Xingu BTW, there are plecos there that are found nowhere else and there are plecos there that are found in other countries. However, the majority are not.

Now that sounds like one heck of a trip. Looking forward to the write-up with multiple pics in the Travellers Notebook section.

[TwoTankAmin]

As far as I understand things, zebras have never been legal to export from Brazil. Thus, almost any wild fish outside of Brazil was removed illegally. I believe some were/are permitted out for research purposes.

The implication of all this is that all zebras living outside of Brazil have either been removed illegally or else are descended from such illegal fish. So, if not for the illegal removal of these fish, virtually nobody would have them in their tanks at all.

I am thinking the rainy season about to start may be the last one the Big Bend ever sees due to the Belo Monte Dam. And I am not even sure of that as the water flow may already be changed due to the dam although it has not commenced full operation yet. If this is the case and it has the impact of destroying the species, this leads to the conclusion that the only way the species does not become extinct on the planet is that it lives on in aquariums across the globe.

[Jools]

Zebras were legal to export for decades. Just not now since the positive list restriction.

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

Jools- When did this go into effect? I am curious how many wild zebras scattered in tanks around the world today were removed from Brazil legally. Were the wild ones I bought from another hobbyists in 2006 which were in the 3 to 4 year age range legal (assume he got them a couple of years before that)? Is this article accurate? http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/data ... -biopiracy

If so, it is discussing the illegal removal of fish, aka "Biopiracy," going back to the early 1990s. However, the article doesn't discus many specific species and nowhere mentions zebras. It also appears to indicate that going back in time that only fish from the Rio negro were legal to import.

In July, 2002, IBAMA in the region of Amazona, liberated 15 additional fishes for the export market to reduce pressure on existing target species of the Rio Negro.

When exactly did zebras become restricted? The above article would suggest they were not legal to export for some number of years prior to 2002. I am now confused, as usual.

[Narwhal72]

IBAMA wasn't formed until February 1989. I can only assume that the White list was not implemented until some time after that.

I remember seeing Zebras when I worked at TFP in high school. I graduated in 1990 so they were available legally for some time.

At one point you could buy WC zebras for $49.99 retail.

Andy