Is this a hybrid or ornatipinnis

[Riddler]

As subject line
Many thanks
Also an idea on value currently 2inches

[nvcichlids]

To me, if you were happy with what you paid for it, that is the value. I would think 2" synos would range from $5-$20 for average sp.
As far as ID, I am no expert, heck i have barely kept synos, but the yellow coloration seems off to me. I would guess hybrid.

[Riddler]

Yes I'm very happy with what I paid but would like to know if I got the real deal or a hybrid if hybrid I would like to try and find out what it's crossed with lol
Thanks for your reply

[Synofan1222]

I would say hybrid as well. From the angle the fish is in, I can't tell for sure, though.

[lilu]

It looks similar to a Hybrid #9 http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... es_id=4397

[Riddler]

Yeah agree it similar but mine has none of the spotty markings like the one in pic

[Riddler]

A few more pics

[Richard B]

Without any doubt this is a hybrid

[jippo]

Agree with Richard, definately hybrid.

[wrasse]

I have kept a few synos and currently have a group of flavi's, but I don't know the family well enough to know that this is a hybrid. What indicators make you guys so sure?
It's pattern may change as it grows... it's only a 2" fish and apparently Ornatipinnis gets to around 16". So what other species might be used to hybridise with it?

[Jools]

I have the same questions as Richard really, what do you see in these pictures that makes this a hybrid as opposed to a commercially bred

Synodontis ornatipinnis

?

Jools

[Riddler]

Same here lots of ppl saying hybrid but nothing to back the theory up have read a few threads saying things like if it has spots on tail etc it's hybrid but wanting to know as if it grows to 16 inch it will need to go to a bigger home than I can give it

[Birger]

but wanting to know as if it grows to 16 inch it will need to go to a bigger home than I can give it

I will address this first...I believe that S. ornatipinnis will only grow to the 22 cm TL range as opposed to the 40 cm which comes from a checklist, Gosse, J.-P., 1986. Mochokidae. p. 105-152. In J. Daget, J.-P. Gosse and D.F.E. Thys van den Audenaerde (eds.) Check-list of the freshwater fishes of Africa (CLOFFA). ISNB, Brussels, MRAC, Tervuren; and ORSTOM, Paris. Vol. 2.

Hybrid or real I think this is a safe size for either.


As far as why this is a hybrid...they did flood the market at the height of the hybrid syno invasion...this is not real proof though of course.

To me a real ornatipinnis juvenile will have definite transverse banding, which as it gets more mature will break up into horizontal lines of bigger spot, again nothing says there can be some variation in the patterning but for the pattern to go sometimes completely horizontal in my eyes is not correct.

Color in a real ornatipinnis should be a light grey to a yellowish or olive with the dark banding overlaid onto that.Some of what I think are hybrids just have too much white...too much contrast.

The real tell for me though has nothing to do with color or pattern...this is the humeral process which is like a fingerprint for Synodontis...in a real S.ornatipinnis as they mature the humeral will broaden and be not so pointed.

This is one that the hybrid invasion has really messed up because they did come quite close with this combination.


Now it is in your court...prove that it is a real Synodontis ornatipinnis...any paper you would like I probably have it for you except the fore mentioned list and that was only about size. Sway my mind and I will gladly agree.

Birger

ps. there are a couple images that have snuck back into S.ornatipinnis page that I think had been moved...3 & 6 for sure

[Riddler]

Thank you for the detailed reply
As for the ball being in my court you have game set and match.
I brought this cat after finding it hiding at the local aquatics centre for a very good price as the person selling didn't know what it was (like me).
I have tried finding out since homing him what he could be which is what brought me here to the real. Experts of catfish
Something else I would be interested to know is if he could be attacking my other fish overnight as I found one today with half a tail missing and don't fancy losing the rest (blue royal and yellow fancy guppies)
Thanks again for taking the time to reply

[Birger]

Are there only guppies in the tank with the syno...no other fish?

It would not surprise if the fish was snapping at the tails of the guppies as they lay dormant at night...most fish are opportunistic if possible food is laying around or they might Just be in the way at times

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

[Riddler]

No other community fish as well
Plus a talking catfish
4 baby bristle nose
A small rubbernose
Small albino bristle nose
Biggest fish is a 3inch pearl gourami

These live in a 36x15x18 tank
2 filters a tetratec ex-700 and a fluval u3
Water parameters all fine part from I have been told ph slightly high and not showing any nitrites
Tank has been up and running for about 8 months and both filters were pre established

Thanks for your help I still have loads to learn but am very willing to take advice or tips

[Birger]

Yes...long tailed guppies and most synos would be a bad match...not that the syno would always be trying to eat them but the long fins just might be hard to resist. To me the syno and the gourami are a little out of place in this tank even though for the most part they would all get along.
The Synodontis will outgrow its tankmates though.

Depending on the species a "talking catfish" might find smaller fish a good late night snack as well.


Birger

[Riddler]

Looks like I might end up with 6 fish in the tank lol hopefully can move smaller fish once guppy fry has gone

[Jools]

The real tell for me though has nothing to do with color or pattern...this is the humeral process which is like a fingerprint for Synodontis...in a real S.ornatipinnis as they mature the humeral will broaden and be not so pointed.

Can you see this in the pictures posted in this thread? Or are you going on the high contrast alone? I think the high contrast is a result of captive breeding. I've been looking at these quite closely in LFS, maybe I will buy one to grow it up and have a good look at the HP. What is evident is that

Synodontis ornatipinnis

are in the hands of those who breed

Synodontis

for the trade, so it would seem plausible to me that captive bred ones will be available.

Now it is in your court...prove that it is a real Synodontis ornatipinnis...any paper you would like I probably have it for you except the fore mentioned list and that was only about size. Sway my mind and I will gladly agree.

I think that's a very wise thing to say and key to this. I'm not sure about the fish pictured, but if we can have photos of it once it's three or four times bigger, then we can begin to have a firmer discussion as to it meeting the species description or not.

ps. there are a couple images that have snuck back into S.ornatipinnis page that I think had been moved...3 & 6 for sure

Yes, I see that too. It's not intentional - leave that with me as I should have older images archived.

Jools

[Jools]

Same here lots of ppl saying hybrid but nothing to back the theory up

In Richard B you have someone who knows the trade in Synodontis in the UK better than pretty much anyone I can think of. In Jippo you have a "global top-table" Synodontis keeper with a large collection of such fishes and in Birger you have an international speaker on the subject. All with lots of experience and history on the genus.

So, none of these guys really need to "back up" what they say, but it is useful to know their thinking because I think it is occasionally too easy to say hybrid. I was struck by the fact that I couldn't see this fish very well in your photos, yet there was a certainty around the ID which I was intrigued by.

It would also help a little bit knowing if you bought the fish from a chain store or an independent retailer.

Jools

[Riddler]

I brought from an independent retailer who stock lots of different fish including some nice plecs (zebra l46, green phantoms and a few tigers) lady selling them didn't even have a label for fish as didn't know what it was I liked the look of it and paid £7.50
Shop is called paddock farm water gardens and nursery

Also didn't mean to be rude asking them to back up what the wrote but as I'm new here didn't realise I'm dealing with world speakers and the like

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hey Riddler, welcome! I don't think Jools says you have said something rude. As I understood it, you were talking about other forums, right? Jools was kindly pointing out how this one is different, exactly because you are new... I think. You, indeed, are getting the best possible advice available and it is an invaluable privilege for all the rest of us, IMHO.

[Riddler]

That's good to know just didn't want to come across as an idiot arguing points I don't fully understand with ppl who really do know what there talking about

[Richard B]

I haven't seen genuine Ornatipinnis for 20+ years. At that time the 2 specimens i had (in store) were 3" body size & retailed at £85 each. the pattern was mostly thick vertical bands with a little contrast so you could see the banding. The fish in the picture has incredibly high contrast between the two body colours & the bands are not vertical, they are far more squiggly/diagonal.

The other specimens i've encountered that were genuine were larger & the pattern had started to change so the fish resembled Birgers description above

[Jools]

So, what I had in my head was this was a variable species. I went back to Poll this morning and find this is the case with words like "mosaic" being used in the species description. However, I need to translate it word for word from French as there is a lot of discussion of body and fin patterning. There are the typically excellent drawings of the species at 10 and 20 cm SL and there is the broad HP picture at the back of the book too. There is also mention of contrast, so again, I must translate it.

So, the banding relative to size appears to be characteristic. At 10cm or smaller this should be a banded fish. At 20cm it's a heck of a lot more variable and banding can't be used I'd suggest.

What size is the pictured fish? Looks about 6-8 cm SL?

Given the distribution, it is surprising we do not see this fish a little more often.

Jools

[Jools]

That's good to know just didn't want to come across as an idiot arguing points I don't fully understand with ppl who really do know what there talking about

Not at all, it's useful for us all to discuss these things as we can hitherto form opinions in isolation and it's good to drill down into them from time to time. The resulting agreement (hopefully!) then ends up in the species database and we're all a bit better off...

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

I haven't seen genuine Ornatipinnis for 20+ years...

Wow! Shocking! I encounter questions "Is this an Ornatipinnis?" or "Bought as Ornatipinnis but is it?" rather regularly. Never have I even fathom they can be so exceedingly and unexpectedly rare ( barring supposition that Richard B rarely gets out, has a problem seeing, etc. ). Thanks, Richard! I can really use this piece of statistics in my answers now for what they are worth.

That's good to know just didn't want to come across as an idiot arguing points I don't fully understand with ppl who really do know what there talking about

Nah, you have not. I, on the other hand, come across as an idiot often enough that, although I don't want to, I am not afraid of it anymore Stick around and you will not have to take Jools' word or my word for who is who.

[Riddler]

Have had a look and he's about 8cm seems to be growing quite quick as only had him a little while

[Birger]

Yes It would be good to follow the trail back to where these are being produced.

Jools, with Boulenger having the original description in 1899 in French you can see his English version in Boulengers 1911-Catalog of the Freshwater Fishes of Africa- vol II-pg.444

I would think you have this...if not I can put it to dropbox

For others that are interested in African fish this set of four volumes I mention can be found online and downloaded from the Biodiversity Heritage Library....It is a favorite of mine...or you could get the full set here http://www.stevensimpsonbooks.com/?page ... set=0&fs=1

Birger

[Richard B]

I can only see vol 1 & vol 111