Trachycorystes trachycorystes breeding....?

[Koltsix]

Hi, I've been a member here for quite some time but I don't post often so I hope I'm putting it in the appropriate forum. I had obtained a group of 4 of what I believe are T Trachy's in 2008(I say believe because mine have a white belly and are very peaceable but highly predatory so may be an undescribed sp.?) from Rich of Infinite Aquatics and sold 2 about a year ago and by luck alone(as at the time I didn't know how to sex them) I wound up with one male and one female. Recently they have on occasion locked up in an odd position, pretense to spawning? I don't know but it did strike my interest in perhaps at least trying to gather info. to see what I could find on how to I could hopefully induce them to spawn. Unable to find much info online I decided to try my luck here as in the my cats section I see there are several people keeping groups of these guys.

The first thing I did was move them from a community tank to a tank for themselves and am planning on starting to try to create more favorable conditions then I was in the community tank. I have sent away for some fake floating and anchorable vegetation to diffuse the tank lighting as well as some real driftwood to produce natural tannins and perhaps lower the ph of the water. They have been kept in high light conditions thus far and ventured out readily but I figured if I wan them to be more comfortable the light should be diffused and more acidic as I read that it's believed that they're "acidophiles" and I figured unsoaked driftwood would make for a natural producer of tannins and yellowing of the water further helping to diffuse the light. Are there any other suggestions or help anyone could give in regards to attempting to breed these guys?

Thanks in advance and here's some pics of them entwined as well as of my male and a video of them in a community they make an appearance around the 6:50 mark.

[Bas Pels]

Wow. I hope this will not be your last posting in this topic.

As far as I can see, it is the right subforum, but then again, I can't imagine anybody minding this kind of postings being placed incorrectly.

I'll keep my fingers crossed

[Koltsix]

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely do my best to keep you guys updated. When I first joined here I was a bit of turd and didn't keep up with some of my threads but I've grown a bit so I'm not as unfocused as I was back then. I've become pretty interested in the rare and unusual and have been focusing my set ups on breeding where possible as well as making their tanks a little more environment accurate while maintaining a aesthetic appearance to me. So I hope to stay dedicated to these guys in more then one way so there should be updates regardless of whether they breed for me or not. Also if this pair doesn't pan out I was even thinking about getting more Trachy's to increase the likely hood of getting a compatible pair.

[amiidae]

Looking good !

I would condition the female with lots of food and hope for the best.

[Martin S]

Great photos, especially the close-ups of the apparent breeding attempt.
I'd agree with you on this not being

Trachycorystes trachycorystes

- as you say, it has a white belly, but also doesn't have the protruding lower jaw that is used to identify that species.
Agree with Ben, more food and maybe a few largish cool water changes to see if you can work out the trigger to get them spawning.
Look forward to seeing more on this pair.
Martin

[Koltsix]

Looking good !

I would condition the female with lots of food and hope for the best.

Thanks for the compliment!

I'll definitely try and and load her up as she's the least aggressive feeder of the 2, may have to use a divider to accomplish letting her get her fair share.

Great photos, especially the close-ups of the apparent breeding attempt.
I'd agree with you on this not being

Trachycorystes trachycorystes

- as you say, it has a white belly, but also doesn't have the protruding lower jaw that is used to identify that species.
Agree with Ben, more food and maybe a few largish cool water changes to see if you can work out the trigger to get them spawning.
Look forward to seeing more on this pair.
Martin

Thanks, I'm glad them entwined came out well. I'm not sure if it was a breeding attempt though, it happens from time to time during feedings usually when one bites the others barbel and won't let go. I'll also give the large cool water change ago after I get some weight on the female, thanks for the suggestion.

As far as them not being Trachy Trachy do you have any theory on what they might be? Or do you think I have happened upon an Undescribed sp.? They're apporx. 12 inches now and quite hefty. I also believe their spines are thicker then what I've seen Trachy Trachy pictures with at least my males spines are really thick. Proportionate to body they're way thicker then say an Oncinus and the tip of the dorsal is white as well as the anal fin tip on the male. They're also very peaceful, no attacking the net or me or other tankmates as you see in the video they where often kept with other fish with no problems even after the lights went out. Though in the past year the male became very predatory eating several smaller then 6 inch fish. He gobbled down 3 Silver Dats about 4 inches each in one day and a 5 inch Severum on another occasion. They also will eat from my hand and are very calm about it, no snatch and grab. Here's a pic of them as Juveniles if it helps.

[Martin S]

I have no idea, but hoping one of the many experts on here may take a look (I'll give him a nudge) and he may have an opinion...
Thanks
Martin

[Koltsix]

Thanks I'd really appreciate that.

[Jools]

These are great pics and I see them in my inbox too which is great!

Anyone else think these fish look more like

Liosomadoras

?

Jools

[The.Dark.One]

It's difficult for me to see because Im viewing this on my phone but you can tell trachycorystes apart from liosomadoras by the former having 8 branched pelvic fin rays and the posterior edge of the dorsal fin spine smooth

[jeremybasch]

Very interesting photos. They do look like a Liosomadoras. I have not seen this in my Liosomadoras oncinus. Perhaps this is something that they do when the lights are out. I have seen my male turn in different directions trying to spawn but never completely on their back. Much to learn about the Auchenipteridae!

[The.Dark.One]

They look like Trachycorystes to me. Too long in the body for Liosimodoras in my opinion plus from the 3rd photo it looks like it has 8 branched ventral fin rays

[Koltsix]

These are great pics and I see them in my inbox too which is great!

Anyone else think these fish look more like

Liosomadoras

?

Jools

I'm glad you got the pics I sent, I apologize for not adding the info. I did here where I stated I wasn't sure if they where Trachy trachy due to their white belly and disposition.

As far as them looking like Liosomadoras, I had kept them as juveniles alongside some Oncinus tankmates. When I received them they where 4 inches and the Oncinus about 6 inches. Wish I had a pic of them side by side but I've changed computers since then and pics I have from that time are few and far between as all I have left are pics I uploaded to online sources. I can tell you though I remember some differences I perceived, the "Trachy trachys?" had a dorsal fin that tapered toward the top to a point with the fin surpassing the end of the spine versus Oncinus whose dorsal fin is rounded toward and meets the dorsal spine which is serrated looking on the Oncinus when compared to my Trachy impersonator? Also I never heard my Oncinus make sounds despite territorial disputes over pipes but the Trachy's where and still are very vocal when annoyed. The head of the Trachy impersonator is also proportionately wider then in the Oncinus and the body more elongate in my observatyion. These Trachy impersonators also regularly slough off excess skin, mucous quite regularly. I personally don't think they're finished growing yet.

Very interesting photos. They do look like a Liosomadoras. I have not seen this in my Liosomadoras oncinus. Perhaps this is something that they do when the lights are out. I have seen my male turn in different directions trying to spawn but never completely on their back. Much to learn about the Auchenipteridae!

Thanks for the input and can I ask does your male and female Liosomadoras run parallel to each other when trying to spawn? Just curious because no matter what these guys turn out to be it'd be nice to know what spawning behavior for the family looks like so I can recognize it if my Trachy impersonators exhibit the same signs.

It's difficult for me to see because Im viewing this on my phone but you can tell trachycorystes apart from liosomadoras by the former having 8 branched pelvic fin rays and the posterior edge of the dorsal fin spine smooth

They look like Trachycorystes to me. Too long in the body for Liosimodoras in my opinion plus from the 3rd photo it looks like it has 8 branched ventral fin rays

Thanks for the replies and info. While I'm still not sure if these guys are Trachy Trachy I do agree with you on the body being more elongate then Liosomadoras. Plus I'm not sure how likely it is for Liosomadoras to hit a foot in a captive environment, after all I got these guys as juvies so it's not like I got large wild specimens and that's why they're so large. I personally never had a Liosomadoras eclipse 8 inches but I don't know if that's normal.


Again thanks a lot guys for the interest and the help, I truly appreciate it and hope it pays off and I can give back to the community in the form of an article talking about breeding these guys and or coming to i.d.ing them correctly and my experiences with them and even better if I can get some fry to share.

[Birger]

Also I never heard my Oncinus make sounds despite territorial disputes over pipes

strange...both my Liosomadoras oncinus(4) and L. morrowi(7) definitely make sounds...usually when disputing a choice cave.

Silly me...My L.oncinus also figured a fairly new group of 6 Gymnogeophagus balzanii (3" TL) would make a fine meal recently.

Your Trachys looks to be in great shape.

Birger

[The.Dark.One]

Liosimodoras do make sound. If you want to id your trachys have a look at the key in the recent new species description on google

[Jools]

Liosimodoras do make sound. If you want to id your trachys have a look at the key in the recent new species description on google

Google throws up quite a lot of stuff for the uninitiated, so, here's the link.

There are a lot of internal characteristics, however the width of the mouth is a good one. It appears that Trachycorystes are photographed with white bellies from several sources, those that I've seen with locality data are from northern South America.

Would it be possible at all to get a close-up shot of a pelvic fin? Steve (who looks at woodcats closer than most) makes the good suggestion that this would at least narrow down genus.

Jools

[Koltsix]

Also I never heard my Oncinus make sounds despite territorial disputes over pipes

strange...both my Liosomadoras oncinus(4) and L. morrowi(7) definitely make sounds...usually when disputing a choice cave.

Silly me...My L.oncinus also figured a fairly new group of 6 Gymnogeophagus balzanii (3" TL) would make a fine meal recently.

Your Trachys looks to be in great shape.

Birger

Liosimodoras do make sound. If you want to id your trachys have a look at the key in the recent new species description on google

I apologize if I misspoke or was misunderstood I wasn't saying Liosomadoras doesn't make sound just expressing that mine never did. I have read the 2008 Oncinus spotlight here many times and reread it when I obtained the Trachy's and their constant sound woke me up in the evenings. I had remembered reading about Oncinus being capable of sound and re-checked as I assumed the Trachy's since related would be capable of the same sound which I first heard several days after the Trachy's arrival. My prior post was merely trying to explain the difference in their dispositions as I never heard any disputes among the 3 Oncinus I kept but heard it often between the 4 Trachy's. This wasn't to say that I thought all Liosomadoras didn't make sounds.

@The.Dark.One- Is the this link the new species description your are referring to? http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000200004

Again thanks for the replies and the info. everyone's been generous to give.

[Koltsix]

Liosimodoras do make sound. If you want to id your trachys have a look at the key in the recent new species description on google

Google throws up quite a lot of stuff for the uninitiated, so, here's the link.

There are a lot of internal characteristics, however the width of the mouth is a good one. It appears that Trachycorystes are photographed with white bellies from several sources, those that I've seen with locality data are from northern South America.

Would it be possible at all to get a close-up shot of a pelvic fin? Steve (who looks at woodcats closer than most) makes the good suggestion that this would at least narrow down genus.

Jools

I was multi tasking and took so long to write my last response that I missed your reply before I posted it. Thank's for the link.

I'll definitely see if I can get a better pic but I might need to remove one from the tank to do so as when not hiding they're fairly quick swimmers and hard to photograph in detail.

Again Thank you everyone for all the help.

[Koltsix]

I was only able to take these pics as my female thrashed about pretty violently and was biting everything. I had hoped to take pics of top and bottom but she wasn't having it. I hope this helps.

[amiidae]

with my limited encounter with "TT", I noticed that Peru import has white belly and Brazil import usually has black belly.

[amiidae]

Brazil with black belly ? --> http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 26&t=39643

[Koltsix]

with my limited encounter with "TT", I noticed that Peru import has white belly and Brazil import usually has black belly.


Brazil with black belly ? --> http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 26&t=39643

Thanks for the info. and reply. So you've had both black and white bellied Trachy's in your care? If so did you notice any differences in disposition? I ask because Trachy trachy are supposed to be extremely aggressive and mine are pretty peaceable. Also as others have pointed out my Trachy's don't have the extended lower jaw, did you notice a similar feature in your white bellied trachy's?


More pics of the Pelvic fins, I took these from some other pics of the male. Hopefully the pic is clear enough to see the pelvic fins clearly at very least it shows the papilla on the male from another swimming perspective. I can send you pics as well directly through the email if you'd like Jools.

[The.Dark.One]

No need to apologise, my reply was short as i was on my phone, so my apologies. 8 branched rays so def Trachycorystes

[racoll]

Here's a download of a paper on

Trachycorystes

, with details about useful characters for the group: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000200004.

Brazil with black belly ? --> viewtopic.php?f=26&t=39643

Yes, black belly.

[The.Dark.One]

Hi racoll. That's the one i was referring to earlier and Jools then provided the link for

[racoll]

Hi racoll. That's the one i was referring to earlier and Jools then provided the link for

So it is. Apologies. Completely missed those posts for some reason

[The.Dark.One]

[Koltsix]

No need to apologise, my reply was short as i was on my phone, so my apologies. 8 branched rays so def Trachycorystes

It's no biggie I just figured it was polite to apologize if I caused any kind of confusion. Thank you very much for the confirmation of the specimens being Trachycorystes.

Here's a download of a paper on

Trachycorystes

, with details about useful characters for the group: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000200004.

So it is. Apologies. Completely missed those posts for some reason

It's all fine by me, I appreciate any and all help I can get; so thank you for trying to bring the paper to my attention.

Can I assume that you, The.Dark.One and Jools are leaning toward my Trachy's being the new species the article is written about Trachycorystes menezesi?
If I'm understanding the paper correctly the only way to differentiate between this new species and Trachy trachy is this quoted paragraph "Trachycorystes menezesi can be distinguished from its sole congener T. trachycorystes by having: jaws equal in length (vs. lower jaw longer, prognathous in T. trachycorystes); skull roof covered by thick integument concealing bony sculptures (vs. skull roof covered by thin integument, bony sculptures visible); inner mental barbel thin and very short, not reaching base of outer mental barbel (vs. inner mental barbel thicker, extending to or beyond base of outer mental barbel); dorsal-fin spine serrated only along posterior margin (vs. dorsal-fin spine serrated only along anterior margin); caudal fin weakly forked (vs. emarginate); gas bladder simple, without diverticula (vs. gas bladder with three posterior diverticula, one medial and paired posterolateral)."
Unfortunately I myself am finding positively i.d.ing it confusing. The jaws are of equal length so +1 Menezesi. Inner mental barbel is not very short as described matter of fact it looks as though both chin barbels may be longer then Trachy trachy in general -1 Menezesi. Integument doesn't appear to be any thicker then Trachy trachy so 0. Dorsal fin does seem to be serrated along the posterior +1. Tailfin doesn't appear to be forked but as it's supposed to be weak and my Trachy's do have tailfin damage I could be mistaken 0. Can't tell about the Gas Bladder so again 0.


Regardless of what they are I'm still interested in breeding them and thus far have only gotten 2 suggestions on inducing spawning which I do appreciate adding cool water during water changes and trying to get the females weight up. Still I'd like to hear more from those who've bred others in the family such as Centromochlus perugiae, Auchenipterichthys coracoideus, Tatia intermedia, Trachelyopterus fisheri, and Centromochlus romani. I tried giving a look at Shane's World and COTM but both have been coming up Fatal error: Call to undefined function get_article_text() in /home/webcat/planetcatfish.com/common/functions/display_article.php on line 183

If possible I'd like to know water parameters, temp and where the matings took place as well as where the eggs where laid?

[The.Dark.One]

Hi. To me your fish are T.trachycorystes. The lower jaw is longer, the inner mental barbel is long and the skin over the cranium is not thick.

[Koltsix]

Hi. To me your fish are T.trachycorystes. The lower jaw is longer, the inner mental barbel is long and the skin over the cranium is not thick.

Thanks The.Dark.One, I agree with everything but the lower jaw being longer but maybe it's just because I like the idea of having an even more unique to the aquarium species then T. Trachycorystes that's blinding me. You've been very helpful in determining whether they where Trachy's or not.

The thread looks like it's dying down as I haven't heard back from a couple of people to get their final thoughts on i.d. or advice or experiences with breeding other driftwoods. Still I haven't lost my own exuberance and will keep the thread updated whether I succeed or not as well as add a couple of pics of the probable T. trachy's in a more natural black water set-up. As a matter of fact I think this has reignited my interest in driftwoods as a whole so hopefully you'll see a lot more pics and experiences from me regarding some other species of driftwoods.


Again thank you everyone for all the input and info.
Kolt