PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by krazyGeoff »

Jools wrote:
racoll wrote:But have you ever stopped to think that they are perhaps more sophisticated in communicating than we are? The degree of multitasking, adapting and understanding complex and highly dynamic language actually impresses me a lot.
+1. :-)

I notice this in the corporate world, despite being over 40, I'm fairly OK (according to Geoff, I'm 20) but I see guys I guess even 10 years younger than me being made to look useless by their inability or unwillingness to do this kind of stuff.
I used to be the guy that set up all the tech for most of my family. Now I have a beer and give the device to a nephew or niece. They have the job done in the time it takes to have the beer.
Jools wrote: It was a young crowd, masses of technology present, nobody sitting in a corner staring at a screen. Kids dancing, interacting, all good. However, loads of coverage on FaceBook, Twitter, Instagram and so on - some nice content (no more or less shallow than a family album) going on. What I don't notice is any kind of dependency when the technology goes off. I realise I am biased. My kids are too young for me to understand how this will pan out but my hunch is the constant availability of tech will mean they are well equipped to understand when to use it and when not. But I'd much rather they picked up a device and interacted with it than sat in front of the TV. My four year old son is a likely to pick up his iPad and draw something as he is to watch TV (on it), play a recreational or educational game. However if there is something more interesting happening (like jumping on his Uncle) then that's what happens.
This is a great point Jools.
Personally I think that us older "kids" :d perhaps don't see the bigger picture that you have just described, we only see a part of it, as we observe briefly a single situation.
I do not have children, so fear I will not experience the bigger picture as you described, thanks for that.
Jools wrote:
As to the technophobe thing, it's interesting. I see FaceBook (and mobile computing generally) as an enabler. People who don't use computers much can pick up a touch device and be doing things with it very quickly. Another reason why facebook is popular - it's bridged a generational gap.
Interesting, in my business (banking) we are at the point where mobile technology is primarily for consuming information, rather than creating, which is obviously affecting my point of view. Additionally there is the security and privacy aspect, which makes it difficult to accept some things.

I am starting to get where you are going Jools.......

I do like the university example that was raised earlier.

I even have another mini story, which has actually helped me to see where Jools is going.
When I was younger, perhaps this was 1999, I was on call as a tech support guy for a company in Australia, even though I was living in NZ.
I took my Grandfather, who was about 80, to the bank as he needed to get some money out. My Cell phone rang, I took the call, started with the techno babble, took about 5 minutes to sort it out for them.
My Grandfather was quite amazed when I explained that it was a guy in Australia and they had an issue with their computer system, which I had just fixed.
I am still sure that until the day he died, he had thought that he had woken up on a different planet that morning.
Cell phones and international support desks and stuff like that is just "normal" to us now!
Actually it may already be old school.
I guess where Jools is coming from is that PC needs to be "enabled" for the next generation of "us"
So how do we do that?
Very much enjoying this topic.

Cheers
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by krazyGeoff »

I was talking to one of my friends, who is more into these areas than I am at present.

He suggested that google+ might be a better medium than Facebook, due to the more discussion based environment, rather than social.

Any thoughts?

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

Yes, I agree, google+ is much better for this kind of thing but it has a much, much lower userbase and is more popular with the tech crowd who need a break (or are morally opposed :-) ) to FaceBook. It's hangout feature is especially cool - I can see "virtual mini conventions" happening with that medium in future.

Meantime, I think it's too early to move on the forum/FaceBook thing. I'm going to do more research on the common ID (e.g. using your facebook ID to log in to Planet) and also more features from Planet to FB (e.g. post my cats updates on FaceBook) but I'm not going to do anything structural.

I pay a fair amount of cash per month (currently US$145 all in) to run the site, and this is just about covered by donations and advertisers. If we moved to FB, I would lose quite a lot of incoming revenue (and FaceBook gets richer) but I could downgrade to a smaller server (the forum takes the lion's share of resources). On the sole point of cash, it really is, as someone said before, a case of "it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".

I think one thing I learned from this really helpful discussion (which is still open for debate BTW) is that there is some heartfelt loyalty to the forum, there is an underlying concern that easier access to the forum may negatively impact it (quality better than quantity) and the very valid point that I am "asking turkeys to vote for Christmas". This kind of question also needs input from a wider cohort of regular FaceBookers and also real life meetings / gatherings.

Thanks for helping me kick the can around.

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by verbal »

Unless Facebook changes/improves I don't think migrating to Facebook is an adequate replacement for the current PlanetCatfish forum.

I think Facebook is too user rather than community centered too really promote group discussions. I think however that this is an area where Facebook will have to improve to maintain its dominance/relevance in social networking. I think Facebook does have a place in allow promotion of PlanetCatfish(forums, species profiles and articles), but I don't think in it's current state it would do forum-type communities and discussions very well.

Google+ may be more promising as a potential replacement, but I don't know that it's user base is widespread enough for it to really be an option.

It doesn't look like there is much phpBB/facebook integration. However it might be something worth keeping an eye on. I think that is an area where there potentially could be the best of both worlds. Those who mainly use facebook could use that as their login, but no one would be forced to migrate.

Another area that might be worth looking out for is a forum reader app in Facebook or On google+(something similar to tapatalk). I don't think a good one currently exists.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by wrasse »

verbal wrote:Unless Facebook changes/improves I don't think migrating to Facebook is an adequate replacement for the current PlanetCatfish forum.
TwoTankAmin wrote:All the things that make this place a great site and an asset to the serious fish keeper as well as the passers-by should never stop being here as far as I am concrned. The newbies who never really progress much further have no need for this site. For them Facebook is ideal. For those who need to know more and better information, Facebook will never be the place to find the answers.
Oh really?

South American Fish, Asian Fish and The Catfish Study Group are three FB 'on topic' groups I regularly use now. It seems to me that the regular faces I see at UK conventions, auctions, shows AND shops also use these groups, amongst others. Discussion is sometimes very 'live' and global, when you want it the advice is excellent, photos and videos often superb and access to top aquarists can be direct. I really enjoy being able to easily exchange messages with Michael Hardman, Mark Sabaj, Ingo Seidel, Steven Grant, Mark Walters, Jamie Horne, Mike Kirkham, Neil Woodward, Jools, David Howarth, Ian Fuller, etc etc etc.

A mine of information passes through FB and disappears, which is a great shame. Planetcatfish is valuable for information and referral. I often read it for identification reminders. I still read it, but nowadays I'm afraid I don't contribute so much.

Jools I think you have asked a very timely question/ issue. I have no idea how you could integrate PC more, I'm no teckie as you know. But I do think this ship needs to up-anchor... :-O
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

At present, one can think of FaceBook as a telephone party line, Planet (or forums more generally) are books. You don't lose stuff in forums but it can be hard to find. Facebook info is gone pretty quickly unless it's media (photos, videos, files). However, it began with the forums being the party line and that has changed. I am talking here about the community aspect of a website and not about the reference aspect.

Here's a test. Write something on facebook, write the same thing on Planet. Make it quite unique. Google it 24 hours later and then a week and then a month.

I guess my reason for bringing this up is that I am looking at what might happen next. Will people get jaded with facebook or will facebook evolve?

The best single thing I've read in this thread is unfortunately a techie thing, but I think a facebook app for phpBB forums would just nail this. This would likely diminish revenue (to Planet) but not by that much and we would have the best of both worlds.

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

After a bit of research this morning, I've built a thing that does this:

"Post to FaceBook" check box added to create new / reply to post page. This then means your post is sent to our facebook page with a link to get from facebook back to the forum to reply. A number of issues exist with this, the main one is editing the post on Planet doesn't edit it on Facebook. I think it would also need seamless facebook login to the forum for new users. Anyway, this is something of an aside for now...

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

This summarises it quite well.
Blog, forum, facebook and VPC.
Blog, forum, facebook and VPC.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by krazyGeoff »

Jools wrote:After a bit of research this morning, I've built a thing that does this:

"Post to FaceBook" check box added to create new / reply to post page. This then means your post is sent to our facebook page with a link to get from facebook back to the forum to reply. A number of issues exist with this, the main one is editing the post on Planet doesn't edit it on Facebook. I think it would also need seamless facebook login to the forum for new users. Anyway, this is something of an aside for now...

Jools
I was thinking along a similar line, but instead of being able to generally post things from PC to FB, what about creating a new forum category, similar to speak easy.
You start in FB, on the PC page thing, and have a section called "ask the experts" or something.
Each new thread/conversation on this area in FB creates a new topic in this new forum category.
Replies can come from FB or PC and links could be posted to main PC.
Replies to this thread get posted to the FB conversation, but the main PC stays in PC.
Removing a FB post causes a reply lock, rather than a topic lock in PC.
The moderation rules will have to be relaxed in this category, to be similar to FB rules.

This way you sort of get the best of both worlds, interaction with PC from FB and visa versa, and FB users can get redirected to PC because a guest can read "all" of the content in PC anyway, and if someone want to participate in a main conversation then they join PC. They can however observe from FB.

The integration from FB to PC is via a user associated with the PC FB page, so not every FB user needs an integrated login into PC as the PC FB page is actually the authenticated user, and the FB user name can be part of the post content. A link to the FB post can be part of the content in PC.

So lets say someone was on FB and the said "what's this catfish?" And put a photo up to FB.
The PC post is , "what's my catfish" and has a link to the FB thread (otherwise you can't see the photo). The reply may be typed into a reply on PC, "it's a bla bla bla" with a link to the catelog page.
The reply goes up to FB and when the user clicks the link to the catelog page they go to PC.
Alternately a reply may be typed directly into FB with or without a link to another site and that reply will be posted in PC.

The other benefit of this is that the whole of the PC forum does not need to be wired into FB, and as such the rich content of the other forums does not get diluted with the sort of content you may get with free access.

Then perhaps it can be sort of like: yes we have a gated community, but we are more than happy to talk to you over the fence, and over a beer, and you are more than welcome to look at our gardens and look into our houses and we will give you a tour of the golf course, but if you want to move in, or play on our golf course or drive our car, then we need you to fill out this form......

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Here is what concerns me in all of this. I post on a number of sites as well as here. My photos and posts are mine- i.e. I own the rights to them. I fully understand that any site has the right to keep what I post on the site to avoid having threads with chunks removed by unhappy members. I do not have a problem with this as I know if I don't want what I post to live on a site for as long as that sites lasts, I simply don't post it.

It is my choice not to participate on FaceBook in any way. I would not give my permission for anything that was legally mine under copyright laws to be posted on FaceBook ever. So how would my right to my material be protected in this respect?

Gee whiz, I did not know name dropping was the thing to do, should I list all the Ph.D. and other experts I have been able to contact personally over the years. Most recently in the past few weeks I contacted a Ph.D. research marine biologist in Hawaii for a back and forth on artemia and a Ph.D. biochemistry professor in S. Africa regarding the use of Rooibos (Aspalathus linearis) in aquariums. It is a wonder I was able to do this sort of stuff without FaceBook. (Any hint of sarcasm is strictly intentional :d )

My experience with such folks has been they often dislike "hugely public sites" as places for posting and exchanging ideas. That is why so few of them seem to post on even the good sites like this one, let alone the fish sites for the newbies and general aquarists. In fact, it is being pestered by them plus being hounded by a few idiots who always think they know more and want to argue endlessly that drives the best folks off of most sites when they even try to participate.

I would argue that what has caused some members to reduce or to cease their posting here coupled with the rising number of hits here reflects just this fact. I used this site for years before I joined. I was intimidated by the level of expertise I saw here. I knew many folks came here for info but the posting was mostly more esoteric than similar stuff on less specialized sites. Over the years I watched more and more "newbies" joined and the average post quality declined- as the membership numbers rose, the number of the more common sort of posts also rose.

And this is the conundrum. What does any site strive for- quality or quantity? Unfortunately the two are antithetical.

PC exists to be a resource for its members and others as well. FaceBook exists to make a huge profit for the owners by taking advantage of its users. The benefit of what any user gets is a far cry from what FaceBook makes. PC does not use it members as a cash cow, FaceBook will "take" as much of you and your life as they can to line their pockets. PlanetCatfish is a tool for its members. Facebook members are tools for the site. In the end, that is the real difference.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by MatsP »

TwoTankAmin wrote:Gee whiz, I did not know name dropping was the thing to do, should I list all the Ph.D. and other experts I have been able to contact personally over the years. Most recently in the past few weeks I contacted a Ph.D. research marine biologist in Hawaii for a back and forth on artemia and a Ph.D. biochemistry professor in S. Africa regarding the use of Rooibos (Aspalathus linearis) in aquariums. It is a wonder I was able to do this sort of stuff without FaceBook. (Any hint of sarcasm is strictly intentional :d )
I have been on Facebook for about 5 years now. I have around 600 friends, ranging from people that I'm definitely personal friends with, through second and third cousins that I've met a few times to some people I barely know who they are.

However, amongst those friends are several Ichthyoligists and other scientists (I reckon around 20 of my Facebook friends are "fish-scientists" of some sort or another, a few of which I've met, most of which I've had some useful discussion with), and they are definitely perfectly happy to discuss things in public. Of course, SOMETIMES they are not. But I don't think it's a general rule that just because someone is a scientist, has a PhD or is a professor, that they can't share their knowledge on Facebook. #

Another benefit of these friends is that they often post photos from their fish collecting or photos of fish from the collections in a museum. When I see that, I pop a message saying "Can we use this for Planetcatfish". I don't know exactly how many pictures that means we have, that we perhaps wouldn't have because we didn't know the photo existed...

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

Just to keep this on topic, the discussion is about Facebook as a discussion platform for the planetcatfish community rather than everyone on Facebook or rather than everyone who can access email.

Sure, anyone can email a scientist. But what is the benefit to the community? It's one to one and not to be seen again. Sure, lots of folks are online on Facebook but again, what is the benefit to the community if you can't find what you posted last month.

I am pitching this more at what Facebook might become in terms of a discussion forum.

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by FuglyDragon »

At the very least you should / could add Facebook and G+1 like buttons to each forum thread so we can 'like' posts we err like, will maybe pull in a few members for the forums.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Coriequest »

I sort of like Facebook but think it can't take the place of this site. However, you could have a FB presence that could drive people over here. The purpose being to serve our whiskered fish friends and add members. I don't post more often here, because every time I want to, it makes me log in. Often, logging in is way more than I want to go through to leave a comment. This site is similar to SFBAAPS in terms of the format but I don't have to log in every time there. At SFBAAPs, I only occasionally get a log in screen (which I suspect is when something technical has has happened at the server.) I think someone who has a presence here, likes FB and knows a lot about catfish, could choose something interesting to post that has to do with catfish under your name over there. Diehard haters of FB wouldn't miss much by not seeing what's on FB, but PC could be there in an way of being an intro or referral to this site. You wouldn't have to post a lot, maybe once a week or so. Visitors will post but you wouldn't have to respond based on what I see on FB.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

Would FB users like a daily digest of all new forum threads posted on FB every day?

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by jac »

Not for me thank you.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by unblinded »

Jools wrote:Would FB users like a daily digest of all new forum threads posted on FB every day?

Jools
Not sure if you ever got an answer to this. I use FB every day (I've got a lot of downtime on my job). However, I don't visit the planetcatfish page on FB but like once a month. I do visit this site about 20-30 times a day while browsing. Therefore, there would be no need for a user like myself to have threads updated on FB. The FB page doesn't carry much substance, IMHO. MOST FB pages have little substance and seem to be geared for the 10 second attention spans of today. I'd rather come here if I want to read the newest info on catfishes. FB is more "hit & run" info for me, whereas if I want to soak in and get deep info on a subject I check out a forum. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by Jools »

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Forums, generally, are seeing a lot of tail off in traffic but it is mostly that "10 second" type posts. I've kind of settled (for the next year or two) on using FB to push out notifications of new images and, until FaceBook has a more forum like functionality, I won't considered doing much else.

Thanks for the input.

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Re: PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

Post by JamesFish »

Hi Jools,

I don't personally use facebook and have no intention of doing so. I find its to invasive and you lose your right to anything. Not to mention the number of mindless spam tools now designed for it is unreal.

I think expanding the forum to make it more accessible is great but if someone is on a page less than a couple of seconds frequently it suggests its doing nothing ripping content.

Planet catfish has some great resources but I do find it hard to find things in or awkward to navigate. I'm not a frequent forum user never have been.

The posting to face book to say a new image or article in a section you are interested in has arrived I do think is a good idea as people don't tend to regularly check forums anymore but do get a flash update saying contents arrived.

Overall this forum works well, has very limited amounts of spam appears (Congratulations on that one) and a helpful set of admins and members. Anyone keen on catfish does belong as a member here even if its one of the humble ones.

Perhaps expanding the forums useful information would bring more people in? For example the members here have a wealth of knowledge on what cats generally get along together, suitable tank mates, special requirements and things that are hard to find (Its normally expensive learning them). Could it be possible to tap this information into a wiki? Its not a forum but would give a wealth of information that should appear in google over time and help direct members to the forum. Some of your articles already do its how I found this place.

Possible expansion could be aqua scaping with catfish given the sizes most get to its not something easy to do with some.

Hats off to the catfish of the month on the main page its given me a few looks at ones I have never seen before and a few great reads. *Dreams of giant catfish tanks*
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