Spawn of Micracanthicus vandragti, L280

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I got my first spawn of Micracanthicus vandragti today!
Eggs had been kicked out from the cave cause several had gone bad.
I think it as been around 10-12 eggs from the beginning, but only 3 looks fine at the moment.
But I got my first spawn and thats something.

Info
Medium circulation
Tank 170 liters
Other fishes: a group of 6 L239
Temp 29 C
Conductivity: 168 uS/cm
pH 6,9
Very little light in this tank
A few very small caves for the L280 and a few larger ones for the L239
Also a lot of boog wood.
Eggs: yellow and around 5 mm in dm

Sorry for the bad pic but you should see two eggs near my fingers.



A hope for survivors!

Cristoffer

[nvcichlids]

congrats. Can I request some pictures of the adults?

[Jools]

Info
Medium circulation
Tank 170 liters
Other fishes: a group of 6 L239
Temp 29 C
Conductivity: 168 uS/cm
pH 6,9
Very little light in this tank
A few very small caves for the L280 and a few larger ones for the L239
Also a lot of boog wood.
Eggs: yellow and around 5 mm in dm

This is great info - perhaps one of the team will edit and add this data into the cat-elog? I know you are good at adding blog data. This is a first spawning I think?

Cheers,

Jools

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

I dont have any images of the adults. They are very similar to L201 but the body is flatter. Differences between male and female is much less visible than in L201.
It seemes that L280 is a smaller species than L201 and so far, produces a very small amount off eggs compared to L201.

I will se if i could get a short of one of them. You would easy mistake them for L201, but compared, side by side, there is a much more distinct differences. I will try to catch a L280 and a L201 and take a photo.

Jools, my adults are F1, so i wish I was first, but I came second. They have been bred in Sweden a few years ago. My parents are captive bred.

My filosofi is to share as much info as possible and hope that others will do the same.

Cristoffer

[brechtvh]

Wow! Congratulations Cristoffer!
Any chance you got some pictures of the parents?

[AleGer]

Congratulations!!!

I will se if i could get a short of one of them. You would easy mistake them for L201, but compared, side by side, there is a much more distinct differences. I will try to catch a L280 and a L201 and take a photo.

It would be great:)

I suppose they could me distinct by dentition. Is it possible to take a teeth photo?
Also what's size are your L208?

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

They are around 6-7 cm in total. I have a group of 10 individuals. I will se if i could catch one without interupt to much in the tank. If not, you have to take my word for it until i get a proper chance to catch one of them.

As said before. I hade groups of both contradens and l201, but if you only seen the L280 they would easily be mistaken for L201.
Otherwise you could se that this is a slightly different fish.
Is like B. Demantoides and H. Subvirdis or L241 and l240

If i can catch one without problem i will try to get all the photos. Even have a look for the sex differences. Im not clear about that either in this species.

Cristoffer

[OlePaulsen]

can you make a photo of the adults please

[PseudaSmart]

Very Nice!
I like your approach in trying many different species. It takes attention to detail to have success as yours. I am still working on the same play, just trying to extend it from 3 acts to 4 and avoid the final curtain.

Jim
(Not quite as exciting as your news but my 2nd spawn of L97s are free swimming)

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I took a few pics.
I think i cought the actual male in the cave.
Keep in mind that this is a 4 year old and adult fish.
I think the male is 6 cm TL










Its not L201, i know its looks very close to it!

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I realise that more pics are needed to determine what this is.

Still, I have L201 and contradens in other tanks and this is not the species.
The parents where sold in denmark from a known importer.
Is the only way to determine what this is by looking at the teeth? I realise that my mouth picture is way to blurry to be compared to the one in the cat e log. We could wait a bit by adding the L280 data until this is 100 sure.
Could there be anorher species involved?

[HaakonH]

I have done some thinking and some searching, and I honestly don't think we are dealing with M.vandragti here. The anatomy is different. M.vandragti has smaller eyes compared to head size, a flatter body, longer, more pointy head, and a bigger mouth compared to the head size. Check the pics in the Cat-eLog to compare.

In Denmark, a Hypancistrus from the contradens-group has been sold as L280 before. Ther has been some confusion about this number, and by mistake even publications (such as Aqualog) have posted pics of a Hypancistrus species as L280. It could be that this Hypancistrus is of a new, dwarf type, but it's still not L280 - that number belongs to M.vandragti.

M.vandragti is found in the same area as L240 and L241, and because of the miniature size of these fish, it's speculated that most of them are overlooked by collectors in the area who focus on collecting bigger specimens (they don't see no difference between M.vandragti and L240/L241). M.vandragti aren't recognized as a distinct species, but as young L240/L241.

Haakon

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi haakon!

Im think youre right about this. Im freeling a bit sceptic about the L280.
It feels like a hypancistrus.
Still, its not L201 or contradense. Ive talked to the guy who brought the first specimens from denmark. He had this species for several years. He is also unsure about this fish but he, as my self have also compared this species to L201 and contradense. He also says that this species stays smaller and that the fry grows slower than contradense and L201.

Ive taken new pics that i will share as soon as i get a bit more time from work. My L201 has faded spots on the belly but the "l280" is white. Both have 7 soft strains in their dorsal fins. From what I could find the belly and size where the big differences.

Could it be this hypancistrus dwarf?

Cristoffer

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Its not the L280 for sure but its seems to something else. Haakon can bring som light to this.

Profile pic "dwarf hypancistrus"


Profile L201


Both


Vent L201


Vent dwarf


Both above


L201


Dwarf


Dwarf in profile again


Any ideas?

Its from Colombia/Venesuela. I will try to find some more info from the ones who imported them.

Cristoffer

[HaakonH]

I've contacted the importer, let's see if they come back with a useful reply

It's an interesting fish. Even if it's "just" a dwarf variety of L201, it's still a line worth taking care of.

How about clutch/egg sizes compared to clutch/egg sizes for L201? I can't recall any data for L201 as I write this...

Haakon

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Im a bit unsure about the eggs. I think they where a bit smaller, but not much.
According to the guy who bred these before me, they grow a lot slower than L201.

From what I can see, the fry are smaller than L201 in this stadge. Still, I only got two of them.

Lets wait for the importer and see what they say!

Cristoffer

[HaakonH]

Let's hope they keep producing some more offspring, Cristoffer The importer hasn't replied to my email yet.

The Aqualog (2nd ed), a book rightfully considered to contain many errors, actually sheds some lights on the matter. In the book, the true L280 (M.vandragti) is depicted, but also some pics of what looks like a small Hypancistrus that fits the description of the fish in this thread. Also, some accopanying text, stating that it's a small-grown Hypancistrus similar in appearance to L201/H.contradens, may indicate that this fish has been traded every now and then since the turn of the millennium. I fear that it may have been traded as L201/H.contradens and possibly even accidentaly crossbred with it's larger cousins.

Since L280 belongs to M.vandragti, this Hypancistrus may be worthy of a number of it's own, or at least a label that makes it recognizeable.

Haakon

[Cristoffer Forssander]

On what basis is a pleco given a new L number?

[HaakonH]

The importer in Denmark has replied to me now. He wrote that he was involved in the collecting of this fish a few years ago, and made his supplier in Colombia go collect some more after this to get them shipped to Denmark. As far as he knows, he's the only one importing them. I've also been in contact with a Danish breeder who has bred these in large numbers and spread them around in Denmark.

On what basis is a pleco given a new L number?

First of all, this is up to DATZ magazine. But the chief editor, Rainer Stawikowski, cannot do all the work on his own. During the last few years, some of his main contributors have pretty much quit the business, so everything stopped. But the system is not left for dead, work is being done to get it up and running again. So if Rainer and the editors is presented with new species and there's valid ground to give this a new number, DATZ is free to do so. In this case, I believe we may be dealing with such a fish

Haakon

[kim m]

Just out of couriosity; who is this Danish importer?

[HaakonH]

Neonfisken

[kim m]

Ah ok, a good place

[Koen]

Hi

Seems a group of these little folks ended up in one of my tanks. 5 of them, told me to be wild caught. Picked them up in germany from someone who got them in Denmark.

[Jobro]

I think those fellows are called L471 by now? Neonfisken in Denmark still has some wilds in stock as it seems.