Please help me find a Master study!

[T4FR]

I would like to ask you guys for help!

Next summer I finally finish my bachelor study at Wageningen University. That means that in half a year I'll start my master. The problem is I don't know what master to study. I have been searching for quite a while now without much success, so I decided that is time to ask PlanetCatfish for help.


In short I'm looking for a Master study:
- focusing on tropical fresh water (fish)
- focusing on ecology (population dynamics, inter/intra specific relationships, life history, taxonomy, etc.)
- focused on research, (I might like to do a PhD afterwards)
- in English, Dutch, Afrikaans or German (I don't speak any other languages sadly)
- preferable not really, really expensive (some country's are only for the very wealthy and the ones with scholarships. I'm neither.)


Long version:
Ever since I was young I was highly interested in nature. My boyhood dream was to become a park ranger in a wild park in Africa. Little has changed, accept that I discovered fish . My dream job changed to being a researcher working with tropical fresh water fish. To get there I want to do an appropriate master.

I have found many masters focusing on salt water and/or management for human uses. But I am looking for a master that focuses on nature instead of humans. I want to do research on how nature is working, fundamental research so to say. Questions like these really interest me: What species are there? What is their behavior? Their way of living? How do they relate to other species? What determines population sizes? What is their role in the food web and the ecosystem?

It turns out such a master is really hard to find. Many universities sadly don't offer their masters in English (or one of the other languages I speak). Therefor I ask for your help. Any tips or suggestions are very appreciated. It doesn't matter where on the world, I am willing to emigrate for a good master.

Also any tips on how to start such a career as a researcher are more than welcome! Sometimes I wonder if it is a viable career possibility, are such jobs obtainable, or are for every job opportunity a thousand qualified people who would want it? If someone knows, your information is welcome for sure!

[Silurus]

It would seem to me that you are more likely to find what you want in a PhD (rather than a Masters) program. A PhD program would also be more useful if you intend to make this sort of research your career.

[racoll]

I did an MSc in Taxonomy & Biodiversity at Imperial College and the Natural History Museum, London. I thoroughly recommend it, but it lacks the ecology aspect you are interested in. Alternatively, Imperial College offer an excellent MSc in Ecology, Evolution & Conservation.

Sadly though, I don't think you will be able to find a Masters course that focuses on tropical freshwater fishes.

You could either do what Silurus suggests, and go for a PhD program, or just wait, and then specialise during your PhD. Of course, bear in mind that PhDs can differ hugely depending on where you go, and the programs in the US are basically a European PhD and Masters rolled into one, and they can take up to seven years to complete!

[T4FR]

@ Silurus:
A PhD is something I most likely would like to do. In my country (The Netherlands) it's only possible to do a PhD after you obtain a Masters degree. Here a Bachelors degree is considered only proof that you finished the first three years of your university education, not a thing of value on it's own. It just means you can start the last 1-3 years of your university education. Therefor I have never considered doing a PhD right away. Isn't it highly unusual to do a PhD after a Bachelor or is it just so in my country?

@ Racoll:
Both Masters look appealing. Sadly the UK has one of the highest tuition fees. 11,000 euro a year is a lot of money, combined with living in London it's for sure to expensive for me. Besides my grades are not much better than average, so most likely to low for admission. I presume there are no scholarships for people with average grades... (Btw is it common in the UK to have grades limits for Masters?)

Strangely all masters, at least the ones I found, in the UK seem to be only one year. That seems really sort to me as almost al life science Masters I found in Europe are 2 year studies. Do you know why UK ones are only half a "normal" length? Wouldn't that make them seem less valuable when one would try to get a PhD position or job?

A Master focussing on tropical fresh water fish is maybe a little to specific. A Master on fresh water ecology is also OK with me. ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if the best master in my case would be some thing like Ecology/Biology. But I would like to do that at a university that has some real connection with tropical fresh water, for example a chair group focusing on that. All my university really does with tropical fresh water is aquaculture. I'm a naturalist, not a farmer.

The story about US PhD's sound interesting, although they sound expensive to me. The UK and US are some expensive country's to study. Is there a good why to search for such PhDs?

[panaque]

I used to teach on the course at imperial college and it is very good. I am now at the university of Exeter's centre for ecology and conservation in Cornwall http://biosciences.exeter.ac.uk/cec/. Here we also have some excellent masters courses. None with a fresh water focus (too narrow a niche if you ask me) but there is a tropical component in the form of a field module in Kenya (see video on the link above).
It is indeed usual for UK masters courses to be 1 year and for them to be expensive (many students take out a loan). It is unusual to get straight into a PhD unless you are top of your class.

[Silurus]

Isn't it highly unusual to do a PhD after a Bachelor or is it just so in my country?

In the US, it's possible to join a PhD program after graduating with a Bachelor's degree, since, as racoll pointed out, the PhD program is combined with a Master's program (i.e. you become eligible for a Master's degree one year after enrolment in the program, pending satisfactory results of course).

The story about US PhD's sound interesting, although they sound expensive to me

You need not pay a cent if you can secure a research scholarship (which you can easily do if you get accepted into most programs). All you require is finances to show that you have enough to pay for a year of school. I obtained my PhD from the University of Michigan without having to pay for a single cent this way.

[racoll]

Isn't it highly unusual to do a PhD after a Bachelor or is it just so in my country?

It is unusual to get straight into a PhD unless you are top of your class.

Yes, in Europe, only the most exceptional students go straight from Bachelor's to PhD, and even then I would not recommend it. You need a certain amount of maturity and dedication to stick at a PhD--something that most 21 year-olds lack, no matter how bright they are!

The US system that Silurus explained would at least ease you into it a bit more slowly. I also think they mentor you better there too, rather than treating you as "slave labour" to do research on the cheap, as they do elsewhere.

Btw is it common in the UK to have grades limits for Masters?

Depends on the calibre of the university. Imperial College is the eighth best university in the world, so they can afford to be picky.

Strangely all masters, at least the ones I found, in the UK seem to be only one year. That seems really sort to me as almost al life science Masters I found in Europe are 2 year studies. Do you know why UK ones are only half a "normal" length?

Yes, Master's in the UK are one year. Bear in mind that they are pretty hardcore. No holidays, no half-timetables, just relentless work!

Wouldn't that make them seem less valuable when one would try to get a PhD position or job?

Again, depends a lot on the reputation of the university.

[Suckermouth]

I will note that Silurus's experience with going straight into PhD depends on the school. A master's is not part of the equation at my school if you go straight to a PhD, you simply just get the PhD. For salary and tuition waiver I work as a teaching assistant. It's not a lot but I can live off of it.

Is there a good why to search for such PhDs?

For me, I searched for the top people publishing work in my field of interest, and then figured out whether they were associated with graduate programs. You will be working closely with your advisor for several years and you want to both get along with this person and to love your work.

[T4FR]

The above gives me something to think about. I'm letting the idea of the US/PhD option sink in. I discarded the US as an country to study option quite early. If I am honest, the country scares me a little. But it sounds as an option worth looking into.

I have a examn in 2 days, so I focus on studying now. Searching for Master(PhD) continues after that. Thanks for the good info so far!

[racoll]

There are other things to bear in mind too. Do you want a career out of ecology, or do you just want to study because you are interested?

Planning a career in academia/ecology is difficult. You will be expected to work very hard, it's highly competitive, there are very few jobs, very little job security, and the wages are atrocious (you will be earning for most of your life less than your friends who left school at 16 with few qualifications). You will have to move every couple years to a new location, and then you have to worry about getting tenure (a permanent job).

At higher levels, the science is mostly based on statistics, mathematical modelling, and computer programming. If you don't have an affinity for these subjects, it might be difficult to progress. Of course, there will be positions more orientated towards fieldwork, but expect these to pay even less (many will expect you to do it for free!). Have a browse here for what you can expect.

Hope I haven't put you off. Researching and publishing can be very rewarding.

Good luck with your exams!

[T4FR]

Interesting post. It really made me think things through.

There are other things to bear in mind too. Do you want a career out of ecology, or do you just want to study because you are interested?

I want a career out of ecology. I want to build my life around working with and (partly) in nature. It's not just a hobby.

Planning a career in academia/ecology is difficult. You will be expected to work very hard, it's highly competitive, there are very few jobs, very little job security, and the wages are atrocious (you will be earning for most of your life less than your friends who left school at 16 with few qualifications). You will have to move every couple years to a new location, and then you have to worry about getting tenure (a permanent job).

At higher levels, the science is mostly based on statistics, mathematical modelling, and computer programming. If you don't have an affinity for these subjects, it might be difficult to progress. Of course, there will be positions more orientated towards fieldwork, but expect these to pay even less (many will expect you to do it for free!). Have a browse here for what you can expect.

Here is where the doubt sets in. I'm no fan of working very hard (working hard is good enough for me), competitiveness is something I have to get used at. (Being Dutch is no advantage. Culturaly we like "normallity" and not exeptionally good or bad. We have a saying: Just act normal, than you already act grazy/strange enough.)Competetion for jobs and low wages are inevitable. I don't have desire to become rich, although it would be nice to be able to afford a middle class kind of living. (Don't need Ipad's, but would like to buy a new PC every 7 years)

Statistics and modeling is not terrible, but it isn't fun either. I like to have at least some fieldwork. There are some nice job offers on the linked site, but indeed the most fieldwork ones look poorly paid. The list isn't putting me off, although I don't want to become a associate professor any time soon.

Hope I haven't put you off. Researching and publishing can be very rewarding.
Good luck with your exams!

You didn't, you made me think, again, about what I really want. What I really want is to work with and partly in nature. Although it's disadvantages it's worth trying to establish a career towards that. Perhaps a pure academic career is not the best for me, a job as ecologist/biologist for a national park/government/NGO might suit me better. I think tropical fresh water ecology/fish is to narrow a subject. Ecology in general (population, behavoir, competition, etc.) is most likely a better subject.

[Bas Pels]

You could look at it from a whole different perspective

Saym you would earn 100.000 euros a year. What would you spend it on?

If your answer would be - after 40.000 for taxes, and 20.000 for living, the rest would go to being in nature, you could settle for a 30.000 euro job - if that includes being in nature.

In that case, you'd spend 10.000 on taxes, still have 20.000 for being in nature, and no need to spend anything for being in nature, as your job would provide all your heart's desires.

Option would seem to me your best chaise, as you would not haqve to waste 40 hours a week on a job you don't like.

on a sidenote ,the figures are more or less realistic, for Dutch circumstances. And 100.000 euros is a very good salary indeed (in fact, if you hate your job, you'll never get it)

[panaque]

Racoll is right in saying that an academic career is hard work with little job security and having to move around and all that. It is not for the faint-hearted. I disagree that the pay is always rubbish and that you end up just doing statistics and modelling when you have moved up the ranks. I am in the fortunate position of having gone through the whole process (PhD, post doc, another post doc, fellowship) and ended up with a permanent position at a good university. While I am not rich I do earn enough to own a nice house, provide for my family and generally, as you put it, make a decent middle class kind of living. I have never been motivated by money but I have been pleasantly surprised by my pay-cheque over the years.
It is true that I spend much more time behind a desk now than in the field but I still manage to join my students and post docs in the field regularly (when the sun is shining!). As part of my teaching I also run a UK field course, mostly on coastal ecology and I am also tasked with setting up a new tropical rain forest field course. So I still get to spend a fair bit of time outside in nature but I don't have to do the day in day out counting bugs in the rain bit anymore. Suits me!
So my experience is that an academic career can be very rewarding if you love doing research and basically are driven by a desire to find out how the world (or a bit of it) works. To make it you need to work hard, have some original ideas and a bit of luck.
I am Dutch too so I know what you mean with "just act normal". This is not an attitude that gets you anywhere in science. You have to think outside the box and be willing to challenge perceived wisdom. In research at least, competitiveness should come from being good at what you do, not from showing off.
Anyway, this has turned into a bit more of an essay than I intended. I think I may be putting off getting on with that enormous pile of coursework marking I have to do...
Good luck with it!

[mmorris]

I completed my bachelor's in the US in an unrelated subject (history) and then did further degrees at the London School of Economics. My MSc was full time, but I was able to continue after that as a part-time student on greatly reduced fees. Secondary level teachers in science are always in demand in the US. I don't know if that is true in Europe, however. I suspect a big problem might be your 'average student' standing. You might want to sort that first, somehow. Have you thought of the field of genetics?

[T4FR]

@ Bas Pels
I’m not going for the big money, following your perspective. The small amount is OK with me. Although some luxury’s like owning a car would be nice.

@ panaque
Thanks for your positive story, it’s inspirational. It sound seems to be a career I like to pursue. Btw your “essay” isn’t to long for me, I like it! The drive to find out how part of the world works is certainly present.

@ mmorris
I have thought of the field of genetics. It’s not for me. Too much lab work, chemicals, things too small to see.