Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

[Viktor Jarikov]

(1) kntrygrl4lyfe (p: 2), (2) amazonfishman, (3) necrocanis, (4) Hikarixz, who also notes: "Zungaro zungaro or simply the Jau is extremely aggressive, capable of injuring an Arapaima gigas twice it's size. The Jau was more active during the night while being sluggish during the day. This species should be kept alone from my experience. Nice fish except for the aggression towards others.", (5) Redtailrob (k: 2), who also notes: "Very aggressive towards each other even though very small so will house apart.", (6) Buddiechrist, (7) arapaimag, who also notes: "Very vicious in small tanks like a 225 gallon. But complete turnabout and very peaceful in my big tank and grew to 41" (1030 mm)."

Anyone else with experience out there?

I'had had two in a 120 gal, temporarily. One's ~14", the other is ~8". First few days were relatively peaceful but in about a week the smaller one looked like he was through a war (even though he could hide), so is now housed separately and healed up. Other tank mates are ~14" TSN-Leiaris hybrid and two RTCs, ~14" and 10". No other conflicts.

[lucretius]

This is a big ugly fish very few people ever own.

It is probably the most aggressive catfish in South America.

I have a small one and keep it on its own.

[Marc van Arc]

A long time ago we received a box containing 2 specimens of Zungaro, which were about 30 and 25 cms.
Problem was that the largest specimen had started eating the smaller one, beginning from the tail.
So what you actually saw was a head with a partially visible belly and then a Zungaro in one piece; in other words: it seemed you had one fish with two heads.
The poor victim was still alive on arrival but died afterwards (we pulled it out of the other one's mouth to find that only half a fish was left).
The culprit survived and was eventually sold.
Agression,gluttony or both? Anyway, it was the first and last time I've ever seen this behaviour. Fwiw, I didn't like it at all.

[Redtailrob]

Super Aggresive fish although I would assume they are less so in the Bigger environments that they are kept which i think arapaimag has already commented on.
My newest addition was terrorizing the ocupants of its tank within an hour of being introduced and it was at least a 1/3 of the size of the other Inhabitants.
Swifthy relocated it to a tank on its own!
Now i never see the thing as it completely hides during the light hours.
This is typical of both my specimens.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks All. Rob, TBH too short of an experience to be conclusive, I'd say, but I totally support what you did. No need to risk anyone's well-being if another tank is an option. Yes, if they can hide, you will never see them in day light. Never ever. Once, I had never seen it for 6 months in one of the ponds. I put it there at 6" and, having pumped out the pond, pulled it out at 14" to my sheer amazement - I forgot/didn't know it was there.

What you perceived as harassing could have been your little Z. z. trying to hide under and behind other tank-mates is all, couldn't it have? Mine do that all the time.

[Redtailrob]

Hey Victor.

I quite often sit and watch mine in the dark with just a torch for company, the wife thinks Im mad!
Only ever see them in the daylight if a food item go's near their holding spot & then they might shoot out, grab it & shoot back again.
The latest arrival was 100% attacking the ocupants of his new tank as I sat & watched him in the dark so he was moved.
Within an hour he had started again on the fish in that tank too so was moved to solitary confinement!!
It may be that the fish where of too gently a nature to put up with his aggressive nipping, B Jurense & G.Platynema respectively - so wasnt prepaired to risk it. Although at the smaller size or in massive aquaria i can see them co- existing with RTC or maybe Vulture Cats (Calophysus Macropterus).

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wow, such a different picture you and I see with these cats "aggression". As I said, mine 14"-er co-inhabits a 120 gal with 3 other fish just fine so far (2 months). Maybe one day we will understand why we see different behaviors.

Torch as in flashlight? Or an actual fire torch? Since you are using the present tense, I guess your better half has a thing for mad men...

I have no such patience. The 120 gal I mentioned has no furniture at all. They do not behave stressed.

[MatsP]

In the UK "Torch" = "Flashlight", as one of the well known "differences between UK and US english", and it makes great fun for the imaginary image of a US English person thinking about camping in tent and using a torch to see where their sleeping bag is, or some such.

Scroll down on this page:
http://www.effingpot.com/objects.shtml

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Well, then Rob can really kick it up a notch and beef up his home owner insurance and start using a candle or a fire torch. It may also spice up his love life too, if my hypothesis has any validity to it

Anyway, sorry. Back to Z.z. Anybody else with experience?

[Redtailrob]

Torch as in Flashlight!!
Wouldnt want to risk no open flames in the fish house!!

Your experience Victor with your ZZ is tempting me to move one of mine to one of the larger tanks containing a 10" Jurense & a 12" Lima.
The ZZ is around 5"
Will let you know what I decide / how i get on

[Viktor Jarikov]

I got my first ZZ, the one that's now 14", about a 1.5 years ago at, perhaps, 3". He's spent time in a few of my tanks, 120 gal, 150 gal, etc. (in Rochester, NY) with a large number of various tank mates - walagos, oxydoras, IDSs, RTCs, TSNs, leiariuses, mystuses, smallish and small pims, giraffe cats, sorubims, small wykiis, Asian USD cats, synos, electric cats, ompoks, bullheads, channels, woodcats, calophysuses, gouramies, eels, etc. etc. etc. Some were bigger and some were smaller than him. Some were 2-3 times bigger and some were up to 2 times smaller than him. He did not cause any problems with anybody that I know of. I have only seen glimpses of him during feeding times. I never tried to observe at night (all tanks had a lot of furniture and plastic plants) much but no evidence of any fighting could be seen on any of his tank mates, 90% of which were less secretive/much more visible than he.

The first time I saw aggression was described in the OP.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Time for an update. Since the passing of the last RTCs, my 120 gal has had only a 15" TL ZZ and a 15" Leiarius-x-TSN hybrid for, oh, maybe 2-3 months. Both fish have a reputation of being aggressive. Despite the same TL, ZZ is twice thicker and heavier.

Until recently, they would have a run-in with each other, occasionally... but it was no biggie. For the last 2-3 weeks, they were gradually starting to look like they were determined to kill or be killed trying. Yesterday, for the first time a fight broke out during feeding, which occurs normally very enthusiastically but yesterday they stopped eating and started fighting, ignoring the food . So that's that. It's not a pleasant situation but for now they will have to do with half a tank each - a divider was placed last night.

Don't know if I can blame ZZ since the hybrid has a bad reputation too. The hybrid was always the instigator... in the day light... but in the mornings, he was the one bearing 80% of light superficial damage, skin abrasions and torn fins, and 20% went to ZZ.

[Viktor Jarikov]

a few really poor shots of them and their temporary abode, sorry

[Viktor Jarikov]

...

[Redtailrob]

Big, Beautiful, spotty, moody beasty!
What's the plan for your zungaro Viktor?

[Viktor Jarikov]

240 gal grow-out tank 8'x2'x2', possibly alone but I may experiment with tankmates. Until he reaches 1.5'-2' TL... yeah, far from ideal, I know. Then 4500 gal, 12'x12'x5'. If he is lucky to reach 4'-5' and my Aquarium is lucky to have made enough money to continue building bigger tanks, he'll go into the 25,000 gal (25'x25'x8'). Tentative and fragile plans though... plans is too big of a word... raw thoughts, really.

How are your ZZs? any changes in housing, new observations of interactions?

[Redtailrob]

You have some amazing tanks planned Viktor & for that I salute you!
No change in the living requirements of my 2 specimens.
They are both still in solitary confienment
They are approx 5" & 7" respectively but very fat!
Moving house (fingers crossed) in the next 12 -16 months @ which point they will be upgraded to larger ponds but will probably still remain in solitary, we'll see.
I may well try them with some of my larger cats but as you know its a 2 fold risk, they have to be too big to be considered a meal but not too big too overpower their fellow occupants.

[Viktor Jarikov]

yep.. they are so thick-built, more muscular than even an RTC, not to say any TSNs

grow notably slower though IME vs RTC/TSN, do they in yours?

good luck on the prep and the move - you'll need it. As to moving fish, keep thinking oxygen and temperature, oxygen and temperature, oxygen and temperature... if you aim to learn from my errors. I was way too focused on temperature... but then, again, mine was done in four 40-h drives from the wintery NY state to FL sub-tropics, three of them with fish.

[Buddiechrist]

Hey
I got some BAD NEWS for you
Ive had these guys for SOME time. They can ONLY be kept with fish TWICE its own size otherwise they WILL ATTACK. They are EXTREMELY Territorial and cannibalistic, they only seem to tolerate same species (Cichlids, and Large Armor'd Catfish, but again if its twice its size. They are Cannibalistic so they Can't be kept together till sexual maturity not sure when they hit sexual maturity (Guessing around 24-28 inches)but it should go away but ONLY seasonal.
(edited sorry for bad grammar etc before)

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Not knowing more details and assuming you are talking about smallish Zzs, 0.5'-1.5', I think it is consistent with the vast majority of other reports here.

Just so I understand you better:

They can ONLY be kept with fish TWICE its own size

they only seem to tolerate same species again if its twice its size but then the bigger one WILL eat the smaller

Can you please rephrase or elaborate, if possible?

Interesting take on sexual maturity. I always thought the opposite (although these statements need to elaborated towards three possible sex pairs) but I think I should read on that aspect further.

[Buddiechrist]

Updated response before but forgot to mention, I'm talking from Fry - 24 inches. I once made the mistake (was told it was best kept in packs) bought 5 of them (all 1.5-3 inches) that night NO joke I ONLY had 2 REALLY FAT guys left. Separated them to one got a tank with pleco to itself other went into Armor'd catfish tank, until one day the one with the pleco jumped into the other tank with the other and armor'd cats and was eaten by the bigger one in that tank, so now I have the last one left named Hannibal the Cannibal. He is currently 8 inches and in a tank with two 15 inch ID Sharks and a broken COMPLETELY vegetarian 16 inch Marble Catfish.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wow. What a story... and then there was one... Please, keep us posted of this soap opera. I wonder how little Hannibal's life will be turning out. If it continues to be that... action-filled, maybe one day you can write a children-book story on it that will be entertaining and educational Good luck.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Time for an update. The following is only facts:

-- I have a concrete pond, about 1500 gal; ~12' diameter, ~20" deep except a 6'(diameter) x 4' hole in the center.
-- All the cats in that pond would, naturally, reside only in the hole for 1.5 years.
-- My 15" ZZ graduates to the pond.
-- Little-by-little, over the course of 2 months, none of my cats reside in the hole anymore, except a 2.5' IDS (who I see because he is not lying on the bottom, being an IDS of course) and my ZZ (who I don't ever see). Two 20" albino channels, a 20" blue channel, 20" TSNxLeairius, and a 15" leucistic walking cat all started to chill around in the shallows . The last one (who I could never ever see in the pond before) to emerge was 15" Pimelodus albicans with serious skin wounds.
-- They go in the hole only when I scare them by working around the pond and then come back out. Only one channel hangs sort of around and about the top of the hole or mid way.

***Hypohetical conclusion: ZZ must have claimed the hole and chased all out but does not care about the IDS because it never occupies the bottom.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Forgot to mention that my Pimelodus albicans is a like a street tough, ever since I got him at 7" he's been often found to be war-minded with the tank mates... looking for a fight. I'd understand if he was picking on other pims like blochii thinking "hey, this is my territory" but he didn't like channels and bullheads either.

[Viktor Jarikov]

... ***Hypohetical conclusion: ZZ must have claimed the hole and chased all out but does not care about the IDS because it never occupies the bottom.

The last 1-2 months, the water has been particularly clear. I do not see ZZ in the hole - not an easy task but more or less doable in full sunshine. I only see him with a flashlight after dark doing laps in the hole, not bothering anyone.

Now I tend to think the previous observation was likely a coincidence. Perhaps, during the hottest months, the cats could have been coming out of the hole to be closer to more oxygen and poor little ZZ was thought a monster he is not.

[Redtailrob]

Morning Viktor.
I'd still bet this was the ZZ. Hence the other fish steering well clear of the Hole.
I recently aquired x 2 5" Dovii Cichlids (1 Male, 1 female) & was hoping to grow them on.
Placed the female in the same tank as the ZZ But partioned separetly.
Everything was going fine until one morning the Dovii had vanished ....somehow it had managed to get into the other part of the aquarium containing the ZZ & had become a very tasty snack!
I should never have put it the tank, partioned or otherwise.

[necrocanis]

Hi there everyone. I am checking out everything catty as I get back into the hobby and I saw a reference in here to the jaus I have kept. I would like to share my experience with both individuals I kept.

The first one I kept I received at 11" as a donation. He was thin and near death. After a few days of clean water he started to nibble blood worms. I then offered him shrimp which he greedily ate. After he was fattened up and around 14" I decided he was showing too much aggression towards other tank mates. He had ate 2 limas around 11" each. I had a 1000 gal pond set up in my garage and I moved him into there. His tankmates were 2 albino channel catfish @ 12" and 14", a rtc @ 13", a D. sexafasciatus(spelling), a knife fish @ 16", and a tsn @ 14". So here's how that situation went down. Everything was good for about the first week. He was even coming up to eat pellets from the surface with the Channels during the day. And whenever I checked on him he was lounging in the company of the other fish behind the in pond filter. All seemed fine. I went out the next day to find that he had bitten a channel catfish in half(the smaller one) it's head was floating, the other channel was missing a pectoral fin, and had bite marks all over it. The rtc was mangled with bite marks all over. The tsn was hiding on the other side of the filter with bite marks. The sexafasciatus was dead ripped apart, and the knifefish was filleted down to the bone. I set up an emergency q tank for the rtc and kept an eye on the remaining fish. No one would go near him after that day. He would chase away any fish that came near him. Once he hit the 18" mark I had a heater failure in the middle of winter and the water temps dropped into the 50s over night. He died and the other fish survived.

The second one I got at around 1.5" in length. He was all pink with black spots. Not aggressive at all when I got him. I fed him blood worms and krill to start with. He was housed with a juru, and filamentosum to start with and a few ID sharks. Once he was around 6" he started to kill off the IDs and the juru had bite marks on him so I seperated him to his own tank. I tried to intergrate him and the filamentosum but they fought way too much mangling each other. I put him in his own 100 gal pond when he was around 10". He was alone there til my ex killed him at around 14".

Hope this helps add to what has already been said.

Tnx
Cliff

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good to see you here, Cliff. Thanks for sharing. Sounds very savage. I cannot imagine how a 14" ZZ can bite in half a 12" channel, not that I don't believe the facts. So, after that day, only your ZZ, the 14" channel, and the 14" TSN remained in the pond, right? And no more big problems, just chasing away?

[necrocanis]

This is true. He would just chase and nip them after that. I didn't get to keep him for an extended period of time. I was hoping to have him huge, but you know how it goes. He just seemed to want his own spot. I think once acclimated he wanted to set up his territory. As for the channel obviously he tried to swallow it tail first. He couldn't get it all down that way so he bit it in half. Never saw him move much during the day except to chase other fish away and take shrimp when offered.

[necrocanis]

The only other fish I have owned that was this territorial or aggressive was my hybrid rtc x tsn. he would bite the tails of any other catfish that you put in with him. He would not even tolerate being in the same tank as my rtc when the rtc was 26" and he was 36". He nearly ripped the tail right off the rtc. He did rip the tail off my 24" planiceps when the hybrid was 32". Seems tail biting is quit common among catfish ime.