Hypancistrus hybrid

[AleGer]

I have a group of Hypancistrus sp. L340 in 140 l. tanks. As I don't have enough spare volume and my group of L340 is quite young, I moved all my redundant hypancistrus males to the same tank. So there are in the tank 10 L340, 2 males L411, one L411 fry - subadult L411 and 3 males Hypancistrus sp. Lower Shingu.

Today I've found eggs of in one of the caves. The father is L411, the mother seems to be L340, becouse I have no other suspected pleco.



I moved the eggs away to fry tank. I know that hybrids are bad. I didn't wanted to make any (I thought my L340 are to young to breed). I will remove the males from this tank. But now it is interesting for me, what will develop from the eggs. Of course I'm not going to sell them. I'm not sure that the eggs will survive at all, because they are too young. It seems that they were laid yesterday.

PS: Please don't judge me for making hybrids, because I’m already judging myself

[Suckermouth]

Take daily pictures while they're growing the fastest. Compare to pure L340 and pure L411 fry. Hybrids aren't necessarily a good thing, but they're fascinating from a scientific standpoint to study the genetic basis of species differences.

[Yann]

Hi!!

This can be quite simple to explain, the male L411 has been seen by the other females as the alpha male even if L340 males could be present, by obviously to young to compete...

I was actually very impress by the size these can breed...very very small, not what you would expect from an Hypancistrus anyway!!
Cheers
Yann

[AleGer]

To be clear my L411 not actually look like real L411. I purchased them as L260, but as they arrived I noticed that they are not L260.
I created a thread to ID them. And as far I remember right there were two variants:
1. L411
2. Hybrid L260XL66 (pleco22 suggested it)
Below the photo of this pleco marked as L411

The fish that I have in tank and wich could be suspected in spawn:
1. L411 (or L260XL66)
half a year old photo:


I've got 2 100% males

2. L340
Unfortunatly don't have good photos
a year old photo:


New photos of female L340:






I've got 10 fish aproximetly 1,5 years old.

3. H. "lower Xingu"


I have 3 males of them. I remember that one of them not 100% male.

I counted 20 eggs in the clutch, so I decided to look for thin fish that could be suspected in laying of 20 eggs. And I found one H."lower Xingu" very thin (usually my fish quite well fed), it seems that this fish had laid the eggs before. So it could be that I have quite a hairy H."lower Xingu" female. But still I have a hybrid, may be L411X H."lower Xingu"б not L411XL340.

[Yann]

Hi Alex!!

I would suggest to take that "L411" out it will allow the lower xingu male to breed with his female!!
Cheers
Yann

[AleGer]

First of all some offtop:
Yann,



I agree, I will divide L411 and H."Lower Xingu" and L340.

[pleco22]

Hi,

uhhh, that's not easy. At first you should really check your dealer. Seems to me, that all of the fish are sold under a wrong name.
I see:
- L 411 a nice male
- some L 129 , wich are often sold as L 340, but I think they are not
- some small H. contradens
- and some really nice Xingu Variants (L 66 type, could also be L 287)

If you keep them all in one tank, hybridisation is no surprise. In my opinion take pictures from above and we could help you to separate the fish. After that you could decide what you will do. Its better just to keep one ore two nice groups instead of such a mess.

Regards

[AleGer]

Hi pleco22, thanks for reply, I really appreciate your point of view.

Just to clarify:

At first you should really check your dealer. Seems to me, that all of the fish are sold under a wrong name.

Oh yes, this is another painful story, unfortunately it is really hard to buy new plecos here in Ukraine.

some L 129 , which are often sold as L 340, but I think they are not

My L340 could be L129, it is another topic to discuss.

some small H. contradens

My H.contradens from second photo is in the separate tank. They were bought as H.L201, and this photo was taken when they arrived.

and some really nice Xingu Variants (L 66 type, could also be L 287)

My H.sp."Lower Xingu" - came as L287, we discussed it before. As far I know L287 not valid number, so I called it H.sp."Lower Xingu".

ts better just to keep one ore two nice groups instead of such a mess.

I know it is a mess in this tank, the other my tanks are better. But this is the tank where I keep my subadults (That couldn't to breed) and the fish that I haven't decided what to do. But you are right I need to take care of this tank.

The eggs 1 day out of cave:


Unfortunately two eggs already damaged.

[AleGer]

I removed these two bad eggs.

But on the third day more eggs bacame damaged:
The eggs 2 days out of cave:


I removed all bad eggs again, and counted 9 good eggs left.
The egg clutch while cleaning:


While removing of bad eggs on of the fry left the egg shell, but it was too early and it died later.


I missed the fourth day with taking photos. Between fourth and fifth days I lost 6 more eggs. And only 3 left.
The eggs 4 days out of cave:


In the evening I found two fry were half out of egg shell with damaged yolk. I removed these two fry and the only one egg left.

On the next day the last fry left the egg with out any problem, and looked like quite healthy.
The fry 1 day:


The fry 2 day:


The fry 3 day:


The fry 4 day:






So currently I have only one hybrid fry, but maybe it is even for better.

[Yann]

Hi!!

I have often noticed that Hybrid Hypancistrus fry seems to be more sensible and are easliy lost compare to true blooded one!!
Cheers
Yann

[MatsP]

... more sensible ...

Whilst committing suicide for being a half-breed is probably a "sensible" thing, I think you mean sensitive, Yann! ;)

--
Mats

[Yann]

Hi Mats!!

Yes that was indeed what I meant!!
thanks
Cheers
Yann

[AleGer]

Yesterday the fry began to eat.

The fry 5 day:


The fry 6 day:


The fry 7 day:


The fry 8 day:

[Suckermouth]

Great pictures. I appreciate all the pictures you've been taking, they're quite interesting. Can't wait until it starts getting some proper juvenile coloration.

[apistomaster]

I suspect it was your H. debittera which spawned and therefore you do not have hybrids.

[PlecoCrazy]

I suspect it was your H. debittera which spawned and therefore you do not have hybrids.

The father is L411, the mother seems to be L340, becouse I have no other suspected pleco.

Easy to overlook things in threads but he already knows the father is L411.

[AleGer]

Great pictures. I appreciate all the pictures you've been taking, they're quite interesting. Can't wait until it starts getting some proper juvenile coloration.

Thank you for these words! I'm really glad someone finds my pictures useful
I tried several times to make such daily photo report of L174, but every time I stop taking daily photos after 4 or five are taken.

I suspect it was your H. debittera which spawned and therefore you do not have hybrids.

Easy to overlook things in threads but he already knows the father is L411.

I suspect that apistomaster means the following scenario:
My L340 spawned and the male left the cave with eggs. After that one of my males L411 take father place in the cave with L340 eggs.

It is quite an interesting idea:) Does such things happen with ancistrini? I heard about such things with different species of subfamily loricaridae.

And as for me to judge from the last photos, the fry doesn't look like L340 fry.

The fry 9 day:

[apistomaster]

I was unaware of the other threads so what I wrote in this one was what I really thought.
However, the last recent photos of the fry do not look like I would expect of purebred L129 H.debiittera nor L340 H. furunculosus.

[AleGer]

apistomaster, actually it is an interesting scenario with changing male in the cave with eggs:) Is such scenario possible?
Anyway thanks for helping to rise such question.

I have some other fry photos of L340 and L411 just to compare:

This fry photo of L340, the same L340 as I have in my tank:

I don't know the age, but I suppose approximetly 2 weeks.

And only such fry photo of L411 (but this fry L411 differs of my adult L411):

[Unungy]

[Suckermouth]

apistomaster, actually it is an interesting scenario with changing male in the cave with eggs:) Is such scenario possible?
Anyway thanks for helping to rise such question.

It is theoretically possible but AFAIK undocumented in the Ancistrini. There are legitimate reasons a male might want to take another male's eggs; by having a brood, a male shows a female that a male has the ability to care for eggs and has (probably) been chosen to be good enough by another female, making it more likely that a male could spawn! It'd be interesting to test this in an experimental set-up, but there is some trouble with having to have enough egg broods and males to do it with replication.

[AleGer]

The fry 10 days:

[AleGer]

The fry 11 days:

[Torb]

apistomaster, actually it is an interesting scenario with changing male in the cave with eggs:) Is such scenario possible?
Anyway thanks for helping to rise such question.

I can't say for hypancistrus species, but I have experienced on more than one occasion that one of my ansistrus males have been kicked out of the cave and a new one has started garding the egg clutch.

[AleGer]

The fry 12 days:

[AleGer]

The fry 13 days:

[Yakov_krepak]

Good growth rates. What do you feed?

[AleGer]

Yakov_krepak, Tetra TabiMin, moina, cut frozen shrimps.

[AleGer]

The fry 14 days:

[AleGer]

For two weeks I was out of home. My wife helped me with taking daily photos. Thanks very much to my wife Julia for photos:)
So I've got all dailly photos of this fry, but I need some ime to crop and sort them.

The fry 15 days:








The fry 16 days:




The fry 17 days:






The fry 18 days:








The fry 19 days:






The fry 20 days:






The fry 21 days:






The fry 22 days: