L183 is very sick!

[Grimfilth]

1. Water parameters
Temerature range: between 25 and 27 degrees celcius.
pH: 6,5
gh: 7
kh: 5 or 6
Nitrite: 0
Water change frequency: Every month 1/4th

2. Tank set up
Size: 70 Litres
Substrate: Sand
Filtration: Biologically, eheim 2211
Furnishings: Everything a pleco could dream of
Other tank mates: Peaceful
How long has it been set-up: 1 year +
When was the last new fish added: it is the last fish added
Foods used and frequency: enough. also vegetables, but it hasn't eaten any yet.

3. Symptoms / Problem description:
Got this fish 2 day's ago, was a long trip. Bag was filled with a liter of water and 4 liters of pressurized oxygen, bag had fake plant in it as well.
Since the fish is in the tank it hasn't eaten any and it's belly appears to be increasing in size. It's lethargic and doesn't hide or move around a lot, and it's hyperventilating. The other L183 bought at the same store and day, is absolutely fine.

4. Action taken:
observing behavior and concerning about it's health .... And posting it here ofc.

5. Medications used:
Esha2000 Fungus fin-rot and bacterial treatment. Half of the suggested doses.

Pic or it didn't happen;


What is going on and how do i stop it? because the fish doesn't look happy at all... It is only a very young sub-adult, and the other young L183 checks up on the other one between the feeding frenzies..

[MatsP]

You haven't told us what your ammonia and nitrate levels are.

Or what other fish are in the tank.

25% (1/4) water change every month is likely to have left you with high nitrate levels.

--
Mats

[Grimfilth]

This fish behaves like this since i've bought it, and that was 2 day's ago. Other fish don't notice the L183 at all, the indian kuhlii's are the only fish it has physical contact with and they swim right past it and both don't seem to care. Even the fully grown L183 ignores it. If you think this fish is physically ill because it needs rest, say it and i'll move it to my rasbora-galaxy-growing-up tank, which has exactly the same water chemistry and temp.

Like i said, i've got a biological filter, of which i clean the fluffy top filter every month as well, leaving the substrate intact. Theres a black carbonsponge filter in there as well which i replace each year, but i've taken that out because of the medicine. I do not change water when i clean the filter. With a gh of 7 it's impossible to have high nitrate levels, i would be glad to tell you why but that's not what this topic is about. I would like to measure it for you but i dont have such a test set and it's part of the gh.

[MatsP]

With a gh of 7 it's impossible to have high nitrate levels, i would be glad to tell you why but that's not what this topic is about. I would like to measure it for you but i dont have such a test set and it's part of the gh.

I don't follow this at all, and if you would supply the values instead of arguing about why you don't want to, it would help us understand what's going on.

And the reason I asked for what other fish is in the tank was mostly to judge the stocking level, but also in case there is something that is causing a problem.

And carbon sponges need replacing a lot more often than once a year if they are to do anything useful. But I don't think it really matters here, as I'm pretty certain the problem isn't pesticides or heavy metals, or any of the other components that are collected by a carbon filter. My suspicion is that it's "old tank syndrom", that is that the water chemistry in your tank is quite different from the tank in the shop - and I still suspect that it's nitrate, but since you haven't told us the value, I can't really rule it out or in.

--
Mats

[andywoolloo]

hi! pretty pl*co , hope he makes it!

first thing i look to with not acting/looking right is water quality.

1/4 water change every mos seems way not enough to me, I agree with Mats.

I change 50% water every 4th day on all my tanks. Just got into the habit of it.

[Grimfilth]

Hemigrammus erythrozonus x 10 shy/peacefull
Fredcochui boehlkea x 5 hyperactive/peaceful
Gaint Pangio kuhli x 8 creeping around
Kryptopterus bicirhis x 7 hiding in the dark
And the 3 L183's, of which one is adult.
Oh and the 4 Caridina japonica cruising like a boss.

I'm trying to find a new home for the Fredcochui boehlkea, it was my aquarium or the toilet. But they're always in the upper water layer or fusing schools with the Hemigrammus erythrozonus.

The Indian Kuhliis are the early warning system, if something is wrong with the water, they'll panic and swim around for hours, unless i do something about it. Signs of high nitrate levels is mad algae growth, and my algae patches are barely growing. And the waters surface would hold bubbles and smell bad, because of the unprocessed ammonia.

The carbon filter , but it's function is redundant in a biological filter anyway, at least it holds the substrate in place without clogging the pump and preventing rattling noises form small substrate debris.

Good news anyway, i put a full proscribed dose of esha2000 in the water for today and it seems to be working already. The water is greenish, the kuhlii's are in distress but the condition of the sick L183 is improving! It's less lethargic and the hyperventilating stopped. I'm wondering what's up with the other newly bought L183, it won't leave the other one's side?

[MatsP]

Unless ALL of your fish are tiny babies, then I'd say there is far too much fish for a 70 liter tank.

And I strongly suggest that you get a nitrate test, and I bet it's way over 50 ppm!

--
Mats

[Grimfilth]

OK it's a bet! haha i'll have to buy the test first thing in the morning tomorrow, it's 22:55 here now.

Yeah the list looks crowded, but i hardly see the kuhlii's and ghost catfishes. And they're all distributed in the water layers pretty well. There is an abundance of hiding spots, and the only prominent fish are Hemigrammus erythrozonus and Fredcochui boehlkea. The aquarium will get very inactive/dull when the Fredcochui boehlkea are gone, but those aren't in the optimal environment at the moment, and i don't like their behavior. I think i'll move the 2 dwarf croaking gourami's back then.

[bigbird]

hello,

1. you have a 70litre tank
2. you have 33 fish in this tank
3. you only change water once a month and only 25%

I would say you have a huge bio overload.
1. change 25% of the water every week
2. dont overfeed
3. dont overstock- please do not throw the Fredcochui boehlkea in the toilet. give them away.
cheers jk

[Grimfilth]

Bont overstock- please do not throw the Fredcochui boehlkea in the toilet. give them away.

That's what i said, and now i have them... Great huh? They are pretty blue-violetish tough. Do you want them?

Ok everyone is saying i need to change water more often.. I'll do that, but i've chosen the other evil, because the tap water is pretty hard around here. The tap water's gh is 8 to 10 here, and there is no way i'm going to buy a €300 water softener. I have to wait for the rain and boil that, and has a gh of 1.

[bigbird]

i would in the meantime, go to the supermarket, buy 2 x 10litre of water in the bottle test it for ph/gh etc, treat it with the water conditioner and do a 20liter water change now. I would also invest in buying a big drum to store water in it, plae in it oak leaves, alder cones etc to help raise the ph. You can then condition the water test this over 2weeks to use. cheers jk

[Grimfilth]

I live in Holland and the supermarkets aren't that super, they are closed half of the day. Even the water sold has a gh of 7, which isn't super either. I do have pH/KH Minus of Tetra, but it only acidify's the water. And btw; oak leaves, alder cones etc to help lower the pH and make the water brown so i can't tell what the outcome of the Sera gh test is.. (Sera fail, try it with new wood and you'll see)

[MatsP]

It's hard to find soft bottled water in England. I don't know what you'll find in the Netherlands (or Australia for that matter - in the USA I know you can get RO/DI/Distilled bottled water).

So, if the water is hard, how come the pH is 6.5? Are you adding a powder to make the pH 6.5? If so, I'd suggest that doesn't help... Low pH that comes from a powder [or a bottle, but I'll use the term powder, because the liquid form is just the same powder mixed with water, so effectively the same thing] is counterproductive, because the REASON the pH is low in nature is that it's low in minerals, but when you add powder to lower the pH, you are adding minerals (they just happen to be minerals that lower the pH). This is quite a simplified view of it, but I don't feel like writing a book tonight [it's almost eleven here too by now].

(Your latest post sort of confirms most of what this post says, but I think it's meaningful to post this...)

--
Mats

[Grimfilth]

I'm not a chemistry newb, i've studied environmentalism. I don't feel like quoting from my books or looking up on sources either, but i can tell you, pH/KH Minus isn't raising the gh because it doesn't have minerals in it (that would be in conflict with the product name wouldn't it?). I've tested this and the theory is that it's probably a H+ rich solution, held together by a biological solution so it doesn't evaporate, or form any danger to lifeforms or adding other dangerous solvents.

When high levels of nitrate is in the water solution this would push the gh level up, because nitrogen has the same negative ionic load of metals and minerals, and can be measured in the same way (by conductivity meters).
My water is about 250 μS/cm and relatively clean, i if it fell below 150 i would worry because of the pH fluctuations. But it's still nowhere near the 8μS/cm from the Rio Negro

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd agree with the others, too many fish and not enough water changes, I think you also need a bigger filter, I like "Eheim Classics", but you need at least a 2213, and a 2215 might be better.

Our tap water is very hard (S. UK) and I use rain water, and I would recommend it. I don't think you need to boil it, but you could carbon filter it or pre-filter it with sphagnum peat.

My water is about 250 μS/cm and relatively clean, i if it fell below 150 i would worry because of the pH fluctuations.

You don't need to worry so much about pH fluctuations in soft, low conductivity water, it isn't the same as changes in alkalinity in harder water.

The reason for this is that pH is a measure of the ratio of H+ donors to H+ acceptors in the solvent (what we call water isn't H2O, but a dilute solution of salts), expressed as the -log10 of the H+ ion concentration. Because it is a ratio, as the solution becomes more dilute (measured by its electrical conductivity) the actual numbers of acid and alkali ions declines until we reach H2O, which is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity at all.

At low conductivity values the pH is inherently unstable and will fluctuate naturally in soft waters during the diurnal cycle as photosynthesis and respiration deplete and increase the amount of dissolved CO2.

Hope that makes sense.

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

I'm not a chemistry newb, i've studied environmentalism. I don't feel like quoting from my books or looking up on sources either, but i can tell you, pH/KH Minus isn't raising the gh because it doesn't have minerals in it (that would be in conflict with the product name wouldn't it?). I've tested this and the theory is that it's probably a H+ rich solution, held together by a biological solution so it doesn't evaporate, or form any danger to lifeforms or adding other dangerous solvents.

So what DOES it contain? Organic compounds?

Most of the buffer compounds are phosphate based, but I'm not familiar with this particular product. [and I didn't say it would raise the GH - I would have said it raises the TDS (total dissolved solids) or EC (electrical conductivity). That's not the same thing (see below). However, to the fish, higher EC is (mostly) the same, regardless of what the components that make up the conductivity. Of course, some components may be worse than others, but fish that live in low pH like low EC/TDS, so adding something that raises EC would be the wrong thing to do - an experiment you can make is to add some of the product to a glass of water, if you have a TDS or EC meter, and measure before/after].

(I do realise that the reason you use the wrong term may be because you are using terms in your native language that doesn't necessarily translate precisely to English, or you have translated incorrectly - I hope the explanations in this post help us agree on what the terms mean, and what effect what things have)

When high levels of nitrate is in the water solution this would push the gh level up, because nitrogen has the same negative ionic load of metals and minerals, and can be measured in the same way (by conductivity meters).
My water is about 250 μS/cm and relatively clean, i if it fell below 150 i would worry because of the pH fluctuations. But it's still nowhere near the 8μS/cm from the Rio Negro

It may push the TDS/EC up, but nitrate is not a "GH" component, so it will not alter the GH (GH, General Hardness, is the measure of two- and three-valent anions, typically calcium and magnesium, but many other metal ions count too - sodium, and other alkali metals do NOT count as GH).


And what happened to the nitrate measurement?

--
Mats

[bsmith]

I also just want to point something else you said that is incorrect and may be contributing to you thinking your nitrate is at a good level. You said that high nitrates would result in lots of algae and this is simply not true at all. I keep many planted tanks and have nitrate readings in the 20ppm reading normally but in some instances have had nitrate reading around the 100ppm level for a couple of months and there was no algae at all. It has long been dis-proven that high nitrates cause algae.

As a keeper/breeder of 183's I truly hope you figure out what is bothering your fish and wish you the best of luck.

[Grimfilth]

Meh i just watched it taking it's last gasp of water in.

The NO3 test was between 25 and 50 mg, but i lost the bet anyway because the fish is dead now. I did everything i could to save this one, but it didn't help a bit in the end.

After my previous post i've boiled about 10l of rain water and let it cool down for the night, and refreshed 25% of the tank's water that same night with pure tap water and treatment stuff ofc. Yesterday i've changed 50% of the water, 5/8 kuhlii's were rampaging, but are fine now.

Let's say i just picked the wrong fish of the bunch, my order at the lfs took 3 weeks before they arrived. They were in the aquaria of the fls for 3 day's, and then put trough a lot of stress again. The symptoms became apparent when i got home and was able to take a closer look; swollen abdomen, not eating, not hiding, lethargic, hyperventilating and i could clearly see the blood vessels under it's skin. I wish looked carefully in the bag before i walked out of the fish store. The other one is fine tough, trolling the big L183 female whenever it can.





For all you chemists; i was talking about the Ion/cation ratio, but i can't find any source outside of my readers... With the result of this ratio you can identify every water on this planet as well, because it adds and counter reacts the charge of the water with the main elements found in nature, what N is part of as well. The overhanging result is the conductivity or salinity..

At low conductivity values the pH is inherently unstable and will fluctuate naturally in soft waters during the diurnal cycle as photosynthesis and respiration deplete and increase the amount of dissolved CO2.

Been there, done that. I've got a small 30L shrimp cube and those things tend to suffer from those fluctuations a lot. In the evening the pH can be 7,5 - 8, and the next morning it's 3 - 4. It seems to be fairly stable with a gh above 4, but the first time this happened i was shocked to find a lot of shrimps dead.
The water's composition and parameters are much more stable in nature, even tough the gh/conductivity is low because it just doesn't have the time to be altered, everything is in a constant stream downwards, and rainwater doesn't have much in it to start with.

[MatsP]

Sorry you lost the fish - I think you are right in that the stress of being moved around several times in a few days is at least part of the cause of problems here. I lost a group of these under similar circumstances - I think hard water wasn't helping in my case - even if I used some RO water, it was perhaps a bit too much hard tap-water (can't remember the exact numbers).

Sorry, but GH does not (directly) affect pH. KH is the buffering agent in natural water. GH is of course USUALLY in the form of Calcium carbonate, so it's usually the same as the KH - but no matter how much, for example, calcium, you add to a tank (as a salt, obviously calcium metal will have a different effect, as it will form hydroxide in contact with water, and hydrogen gas bubbling off), it won't change pH - for example calcium chloride or calcium sulphate, it won't affect pH.

--
Mats

[Grimfilth]

Is there a list of diseases/symptoms on PlanetCatfish? I'm glad viraemia is a carp only disease, because my fish had all the symptoms, and it is very contagious with no known remedy.
My younger brother has a Malawi cichlid aquarium and is holding gibbiceps in there as well, i told him the ultra hard water is bad for those fish, but they've survived for 3 years now.

Thanks for the support and info!

[MatsP]

No, we don't have a directory if illnesses.

Different species are more or less sensitive to high pH and hard water. The common pleco,

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

is quite tolerant of almost any water condition - if anything, I expect it to prefer slightly harder water conditions. Same applies to the common bristlenose, they tolerate a wide range of water, soft or hard.

--
Mats

[bsmith]

Actually you are incorrect here as well. Lake Malawi has very hard water and the fish from that lake prefer a pH in the 7.5-8.5 range. so harder water is very good for them.

[MatsP]

Actually you are incorrect here as well. Lake Malawi has very hard water and the fish from that lake prefer a pH in the 7.5-8.5 range. so harder water is very good for them.

I took it as the pleco would suffer from hard water that is indeed suitable for Malawi cichlids. And certainly a L183 would be very unsuitable. But not all plecos are the same. [Of course, when mixing with Malawi cichlids, only cheap/common species are suitable, since the cichlids MAY cause damage to the pleco, and putting expensive/unusual fish in there is a sin in my book].

--
Mats

[bsmith]

Your correct, I misread the post.

[Grimfilth]

He has the most common gibbiceps, the one with the giraffe texture. They aren't hiding and seem pretty relaxed, and are competing for food with the cichlids, which they obviously win. They look a bit like the L165, which is the most common in the lfs around here.

It's strange that one was bought pretty large and never grew any bigger (this is the retarded one who reigns terror upon other fish, cichlids don't stand a chance), and a younger one who is still growing bigger... They're both the same and females, neither one is hiding at all, even tough there some sunken drift wood in there.

[MatsP]

Unless you have a absolutely massive tank (and I mean like 2000-5000 liter), the fish probably won't get enough food without completely ruining the water quality in the tank - which in itself will reduce the growth of the fish - so at some point your reach a balance between water quality and feeding, which probably isn't enough to make the fish grow.

--
Mats