Democracy gone wrong

[Mongo]

I'm basically a forum follower these days.

But really when Pier doesn't even register in PFK polls in catfish, there is something seriously wrong. Not really, suppose Rare Aquatics topping a poll is a bit like Robbie Williams registering in all time great singers, new kid on the block.

Good on you Neil, your good for the hobby, now if rare wants to up it's game and import stuff it may or may not sell then we are all in for a bonus.

But really, I am so lucky to live in close proximity to your shop, you do take chances, and don't just pander for the Cory and L number lovers.

I haven't seen a thread that has created so much interest for a long time.

Shame we live in such a popularist culture, but we do.

The question I ask here, does Planet Catfish want to support the import of new species? Or the difficult or rare?

I do know it wants the pictures, but guess this for the owner, and the cost.

All the best

Mongo

[Jools]

I am not sure what the question below has to do with the subject title or the comment on the recent success of Rare Aquatics in the PFK polls. I think Pier did really well too, no? Anyway, it's great to see retailers with a catfish focus doing well in a general magazine.

The question I ask here, does Planet Catfish want to support the import of new species? Or the difficult or rare?

This isn't clearly written, so I don't understand. Do you mean import of new species as opposed to difficult or rare. Or do you mean support import of new species, difficult and rare. I am assuming rare in the sense of rarely imported? But I don't know at all what you mean by support? Perhaps you could expand how we support the import of fishes?

I do know it wants the pictures, but guess this for the owner, and the cost.

Of course, we'd be delighted to add new pictures. Not sure what you mean by cost though? Perhaps you could explain that too?

Jools

[MatsP]

I personally certainly support the import of new and unusal species. I don't know how many times I've mentioned Pier Aquatics in posts, but I'm sure it's several dozen times.

And I plan to visit in the next couple of weeks - just need my new tanks to be ready for new fish - they are getting there...

I have brought friends to the shop a few times, and probably will in the future, and I fail to see what more you would like us to do?

As far as I'm aware, there's been no mention of this poll whatsoever - maybe when it's up next time, someone should point it out, so that members here can cast their vote...

--
Mats

[racoll]

I don't think there is any conspiracy.

As far as I know, the reason why Pier is not mentioned in PFK is because they don't get along.

I noticed that recently, however, Pier did the "Interesting Imports" section for PFK and it featured some of their fishes, so they may have patched up their differences now.

[Mongo]

First and foremost, I'm not saying there is a conspiracy.

Also the views expressed here are my own. But really comparing the fish that shops get in, and there is a massive overlap, in my mind one stands out above all others.

I didn't advocate a conspiracy theory about singers, really is Robbie Williams better than Elvis, a democratic poll says yes. I've never heard or read about Robbie Williams agreeing with this. Second guessing his thoughts, he may think it a bit embarassing.

So now, take the rare aquatics site, they announce this poll on every post, advert should I go on.

As for cost, does it really need an explanation, you really are quite clever Jools. There is obviously a value to this site, and every picture, or bit of information adds to this. It may just be me, but I think it's kind of equitable if people get some kind of reward for adding value. I count myself out on this one.

All the best

Mongo

[MatsP]

As for cost, does it really need an explanation, you really are quite clever Jools. There is obviously a value to this site, and every picture, or bit of information adds to this. It may just be me, but I think it's kind of equitable if people get some kind of reward for adding value. I count myself out on this one.

For the fifth (or so) time: The site is not being bought by anyone. There was a suggestion that a shop can buy the right to use LINKS to the site, along with some suitable tank-labels. That is not even close to the same thing. And from what I understand, the offer to buy this was rejected by the potential customer. So can we stop harping on about the "the site is worth a lot of money"? Something only has a value if there is a customer, and currently there is no one offering money to buy Planet Catfish, or the services of tank-labels.

Particularly, since this subject is according to the title about something completely different.

Now, if you want to advertise (for free!) in the for sale section, as a representative of Pier Aquatics, then please feel free. Just make sure you follow the rules set out:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 23&t=34098

It would for example be rather nice to see the Astroblepus that you just got pictures of on FB put up here. I don't think the way you are currently representing Pier Aquatics is going down very well, so perhaps a more "nice" approach may give you a better response. Show what you have got, and how you provide the rare fish that you have got - I know it, because I visit two or three times a year. But some others may not...


--
Mats

[racoll]

but I think it's kind of equitable if people get some kind of reward for adding value

It's simple.

For the regular user to submit information/pics/article etc to PC, they get in return kudos and satisfaction in contributing long-term to the fishkeeping community.

For businesses who submit to PC, in return they get advertising.

Anyway, as Mats says, this has nothing to do with the title of the thread, which was about why Pier is not represented in PFK magazine.

[wrasse]

I think Mongo raises some good points…

Take 2 readers of PFK… the first has loads of tanks and a tropical pond and kept fish for years, the second has recently set up a nano tank.
They both have an equal vote.
Are they equally informed?
Is one more likely to vote than the other?

Some shops push the ‘vote for us’ campaign. I’ve never known Pier to do that.
Some shops advertise in PFK and get yearly reviews.
PFK could argue their ‘Best Shop’ feature is for the benefit of the fish keeper. Others might say they are looking after their advertisers.

We are very fortunate to have a website devoted to catfish, well-run, informative.

In the UK we are also very fortunate to have a shop that physically gets in the catfish, new rare and unusual, like no other.

The two entities compliment each other. Or should do…

[sidguppy]

here we go againnnn.....

I thought I was the master, jefe and commander of all things paranoid and conspirancyey; but I have to hand my hat, crown and tricorne over to Mongo

Mongo, dont you think or even conceive that repetitive actions like this -as Mats said for the umpthied time again- might backfire at some point?

whining and magging never got anyone anywhere, except that it starts to annoy a lot of people.

believe me, I speak from experience (as whino and naggo), but since I'm in a learning curve at the moment I'm tryin' to be the shepherd.
sort of.

it does not breed goodwill, this is not the right method to accomplish that.
certainly not with such a suggestive topic title.

havent seen Jools here so far, but I get the impression that he's probably thinking he can use his time better by for example scratching his nose


(theoretically, since I do not know if Jools actually has an itchy nose btw)

Sid out.

[MatsP]

I think Mongo raises some good points…

Take 2 readers of PFK… the first has loads of tanks and a tropical pond and kept fish for years, the second has recently set up a nano tank.
They both have an equal vote.
Are they equally informed?
Is one more likely to vote than the other?

But that applies to all kinds of voting. Whether you know the difference between inflation and deflation, you are eligible to vote for the Parliament in this country, as long as you are UK citizen (I'm not a UK citizen, so I can't - I am allowed to vote in the local election).

Some shops push the ‘vote for us’ campaign. I’ve never known Pier to do that.
Some shops advertise in PFK and get yearly reviews.
PFK could argue their ‘Best Shop’ feature is for the benefit of the fish keeper. Others might say they are looking after their advertisers.

We are very fortunate to have a website devoted to catfish, well-run, informative.

In the UK we are also very fortunate to have a shop that physically gets in the catfish, new rare and unusual, like no other.

The two entities compliment each other. Or should do…

I don't see any contradiction between the two points. There seem to be some sort animosity created on purpose here. This is not needed, and as the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar", perhaps Dave (Mongo) should try to show how good Pier really is - and that shouldn't be hard...

--
Mats

[Jools]

Take 2 readers of PFK… the first has loads of tanks and a tropical pond and kept fish for years, the second has recently set up a nano tank.
They both have an equal vote.
Are they equally informed?
Is one more likely to vote than the other?

Take one benefit cheating scumbag and one hard working nurse. Democracy means they have the same right to vote. It's just how the system works. In terms of likeliness to vote, I think the game changer is an online vote. Voting by post takes effort, online doesn't much. I would argue therefore that shops with a more internet savvy customer base will cast more votes.

Some shops push the ‘vote for us’ campaign. I’ve never known Pier to do that.

Even given this thread? I've been served by the OP in Pier, so it would seem, corporately, they're not entirely without comment...

Some shops advertise in PFK and get yearly reviews.
PFK could argue their ‘Best Shop’ feature is for the benefit of the fish keeper. Others might say they are looking after their advertisers.

Very good point and I think the root of it. PFK wants companies that "play the game", they want interesting imports to feature and advertising and all that.

We are very fortunate to have a website devoted to catfish, well-run, informative.

In the UK we are also very fortunate to have a shop that physically gets in the catfish, new rare and unusual, like no other.

Yes, indeed, but one is a profit making organisation and the other is not.

The two entities compliment each other. Or should do…

Indeed, if it wasn't so hard. This thread is evidence of why! Sids point about my itchy nose is well made, it's just easier for me to work with pretty much everything else.

Jools

[wrasse]

wrasse wrote:
The two entities compliment each other. Or should do…
Indeed, if it wasn't so hard

Just my wishful thinking.

But that applies to all kinds of voting

Agreed.

There seem to be some sort animosity created on purpose here. This is not needed, and as the saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

Care to explain?
There's no animosity here.

[Bas Pels]

Going back to the title, democracy does not say anything about facts, just about opinions.

If I would post a picture of dome catfish, and 20 people say it's a Synodontus, and 1 says it's a Microsynodontis, I know most people think it's a Synodontus. But that does not turn my Microsynodontus into a Synodontus.

Polls like 'the best shop' are very popular, but I really hate them. I don't care whether my favourite shop is also favourite for others. Frankly, I like them because they have time for me - and if everybody would start coming there, I would not be happy.

Secondly, what would make a shop a good one? We should first argue about the criteria - do they sell enough diversity? Or do we hold it against them they sell fish they don't know anythhing about? Are we happy with the offered RTC or not?

Are healthy fish more important than friendly staff?

If Sidguppy and I go to 4 different shops and would make a ranking, I'm certain we would each end up with a different ranking. But this would not have to mean anything for somebody else.

Democracy is in my eyes the least bad way to rule a country, but it fails when put in other dimensions

[MatsP]

Care to explain?
There's no animosity here.

There is an implied animosity in that it would seem that Dave thinks that Planet Catfish should do something to change the situation - as well as the incessant repeating of "Planet Catfish is for sale, and Jools is about to become rich...", which isn't even near the truth - this is a case of taking the numbers 2 and 2, adding them together and ending up with 17, and not really understanding what is avialable for sale and what isn't.

--
Mats

[wrasse]

This PC value thing... I couldn't give a ****
I enjoy PC, its about the catfish, period.
Dave has his view and that's fair enough.

[apistomaster]

I ignore all polls and dislike petty forum politics.
Planetcatfish.com provides enormous value to hobbyists for free and I don't know what else one could want.

[Shane]

I thought I was the master, jefe and commander of all things paranoid and conspirancyey; but I have to hand my hat, crown and tricorne over to Mongo

Sid, lmao.

There actually is a bit of conspiracy here. Mongo, do you now or have you ever worked for Pier?

But really when Pier doesn't even register in PFK polls in catfish, there is something seriously wrong.

If that was what happened (we don't get PFK often in the States) then it is a real shame. Neil is a great guy and runs of the most fantastic stores I have ever visited.

However, your actions are reflecting in a negative manner on not only yourself, but your employer. Does Neil know you are making his company look bad in one of the largest international fish forums?

Good on you Neil, your good for the hobby,

I agree 100%, but there is one huge difference. Coming from me (a Pier customer) it means something. Coming from an employee this just looks like a sad attempt to brown nose the boss.

-Shane

[apistomaster]

Ouch! but well said, Shane.

[Taratron]

I've read and reread the OP and I still have no flipping idea what the conspiracy is.

Please someone enlighten me! I want to wear a tinfoil hat too!!!

[racoll]

I think promoting the shop could done in a much more honest and effective way than this kind of ambiguous, misleading and negative thread.

How about a new thread entitled "10 reasons to vote for Pier Aquatics".

The 10 reasons would then be 10 pictures of 10 new and rare catfishes. There are plenty here to choose from.

A link could then be provided to the PFK website where the PC users could vote for Pier if they wished.

I've never voted in one of those polls; never felt the need. But I wouldn't object if encouraged to do so.

Perhaps Rare Aquatics did well because they advertise heavily in PFK, and are featured a lot?

[Mongo]

Hi again.

Well Shane, I worked for Pier one day about 3 years ago, and resigned that same day. To be honest it cost me more to get there than he paid me.

As for brown nosing the boss, it really is my opinion and mine alone and none of the comments I have made are even discussed with Neil before I make them.

As for being there a lot, well this is the case, but this could be said about Smithdown Aquatics, I spend on average one day a week there.

Now as a fish keeper who is a bit fanatical I enjoy being in a fishy environment, talking fish.

Neil is now a very good friend, as is one of the owners of Smithdown, and if circumstances dictate I will help out in both shops. Whether this be advice or serving.

I do not get paid for what I do now, I refused expenses and when circumstances get back to normal in the Pier family my visits to Pier will be a lot less frequent.

Now what Shane calls brown nosing I call help.

Also Shane has his opinion which about how my posts affect Pier. I have spoken to Neil about it, and his opinion is different to what Shane thinks it is.

And really I am in nobody's pocket.

All the best

Mongo

There other points which have been raised and I'll probably address these later.

[Taratron]

Do I not get a tinfoil hat to block me from conspiracy because I'm a Yankee? Please! Pretty please! I want a tinfoil hat!

[sidguppy]

1 hat for Taratron

I added 1 cosmic antenna for you to talk to the Astronaut Gods who made all those wonderful landing strips in the Nazca Desert.
;)

@Mongo:

you just don't get it, do you?

you want to help Neil out or support his case?
you're going at it the wrong way!

so far you only made a bunch of whiny ranting topics and postings that reek of frustration.
that's not how it works.

you manage to annoy and aggravate a large part of the Planet Catfish community.
if you want sympathy from someone, entering one's house and spoiling the atmosphere is not the right way.

for if you missed: there are several topics here that are very good recommendations for anyone else to visit Pier aquatics.
HERE and HERE as well, not to mention numerous other topics where someone has visited Neil's place and told of his or her latest aquisition and even put in pictures.

a single forum search of "Pier Aquatics" put up 9 pages, and that's just in "Speak Easy".
a similar forum search on the whole forum resulted in: Search found 356 matches: pier aquatics........18 pages of hits!

and i didn't even try out a search with just "Neil" in it or only "Pier" without the "Aquatics" attached.

so a simple reality check should teach you that praise for Neil's store is literally all over this forum.
frankly, those topics are the best commercial Neil or anyone else with a live fish store could want! and it's all for free.......


and then you turn up; armed with a grudge and not afraid to use it and demand sympathy and solidarity in a way that will only make people frown.

since I don't think I'll be getting through your thick skull, I'll use a bit of direct Dutch bluntness for which I'm well known here.
summing up my comments in 1 sentence:


THE best way to help out Neil for you, Mongo, is to shut up and leave it to others to make nice postings and comments about Pier Aquatics.

[wrasse]

The 'brown nose' comment is unwarranted.

I really think the issue is a magazine that posts a dubious ranking of the top 40 shops in the UK.

Some good shops don't appear on the list at all and some that do appear are not that good.

I'm guilty of not voting. I guess that's how these lists become not truly representative and shouldn't be given too much credibility.

[Jools]

The 'brown nose' comment is unwarranted.

Well, some might say, so is this thread! 22% of the forum readership are in the UK, and not all of them have been to Pier or are a member of their (members only) forum. Thus, the majority reading this would not know that Mongo helps out at, and is a supplier to, Pier. Which, kudos due, are of some quality captive bred

Hypancistrus

that are, in several cases, endangered species. So, I think the point is being able to understand that relationship within the context of, what I'd politely term, a touch of obfuscation. I felt it was done in a way that was within proportion to the previous posts and their timing.

I've just re-read the above paragraph and it's awfully wordy - sorry - have been writing waffle strategy reports all day!

I really think the issue is a magazine that posts a dubious ranking of the top 40 shops in the UK.

That's a serious question and well worth a debate. I was in touch with PFK today actually and we were talking about online stores and sites and polls. It would be interesting if they published the numbers of votes and also asked the voter to grade themselves as beginner, intermediate, expert or guru. I mean, Rare might have beaten Pier by one vote or a thousand. But if that is Mongo's point then I am more confused and reaching for me tinfoil (unless you explain what sense you mean dubious). I thought the question was as per the quote below?

The question I ask here, does Planet Catfish want to support the import of new species? Or the difficult or rare?

I do know it wants the pictures, but guess this for the owner, and the cost.

Jools

PS I should also apologise if I was misleading in my earlier comment about online voting. The PFK poll was postal only - I didn't appreciate that at the time. They're looking at online polls, but even with IP logging etc are concerned about abuse. As it's something I work with in my day job, I pointed out that IP logging was a lot more reliable than unvetted postal (e.g. somebody going into a quiet Tescos and pulling pages out of magazines for the three months in which the polls ran).

[wrasse]

it's awfully wordy

blimmin 'eck Jools, pour another glass!!! awfully

I thought the question was as per the quote below?

Mongo wrote:
The question I ask here, does Planet Catfish want to support the import of new species? Or the difficult or rare?

I do know it wants the pictures, but guess this for the owner, and the cost.

...I was going more by the title of the thread.

There seems to be plenty of scope for for 'influencing' the vote results.

[Jools]

blimmin 'eck Jools, pour another glass!!!

You're a better man than me if you can spell obfuscate after a drink. That said, I am about to do a couple of things to the site and knock off at 11 tonight with a "small refreshment".

...I was going more by the title of the thread.

And that would be perfectly logical, if it were not for the quote I repeated above.

Jools

[Jools]

Maybe would should split this into two topics, but on the polls sub topic...

There seems to be plenty of scope for for 'influencing' the vote results.

So, do you think the PFK polls are crooked? Or do you think Rare beat Pier on catfish fair and square? Maybe we're all (cat)fish geeks and the voters value some things that we don't and vice versa. I didn't actually vote as not great with snail mail. You make a good point, I think I will in future too if they bring in the online vote.

I can vote four times as well as it's open for three months and one for online!

Jools

[wrasse]

No not crooked. But the list screams to me that its not right.
What do you think of it?
Some shops actively say to their customers please vote for us in the PFK best shop poll, some don't. But okay, why shouldn't they?
It gets into human geography... shops that serve say the heavily populated Midlands position lower in the poll than certain others. How come?

[Jools]

What do you think of it?

I didn't take any notice of it until Mongo brought it up.

Some shops actively say to their customers please vote for us in the PFK best shop poll, some don't. But okay, why shouldn't they?

There will be many of our international readers reading this and scratching their heads trying to work out why a shop wouldn't promote themselves. To back up what Sid said, I would react negatively to anything that appeared to be negative. I would react positively to anything positive (in store banners and the like).

It gets into human geography... shops that serve say the heavily populated Midlands position lower in the poll than certain others. How come?

If the technically best always won, then we'd all be putting our betamax video recorders into recycling right now. But the world went VHS because the marketing guys dreamt up the rental market. So, I'm not sure it's just geography. It's best retailer, not best fish. All voters are not full on fish geeks like us. Flip side is it does appear the hardcore don't vote. On the geography front, as you mention it, customers from larger conurbations less likely to post something? Fewer subscribers in this area? Rare Aquatics for example ship UK wide so their voters can be UK wide. Maybe it is also the better marketeers. Are cheaper fish better than rarer ones? Vote for the underdog? Do you value a store more if you visit it less due to distance? I'm not sure about new kid on the block though, that doesn't make sense to me at least.

There are loads of angles and, with the data we have, you're either in the conspiracy camp or you just accept it reflects the voters thoughts (albeit the electorate are not of the same mindset thus you don't agree with the results).

On a geography front, I felt the Scottish results, this year, matched my personal ranking.

If I were in marketing I'd be punting my stores position in the polls over a longer period than just a year. I'd also be lobbying PFK for all sorts of angles to better suit my store.

What do you think of Mongo's other question?

Jools