Truth about black cories

[Joost]

Hello all,

Since December I have a group of 10 Black Cories. (Sold as C. 'Black Venezuela' overhere)

What confuses me though is what they really are. The PC Cat-e-log states them as a breeding form of C. Schultzei.

The black colour form was produced by German aquarists in the 90's.

Last Saturday I bought a copy of the Aqualog 'All Corydoras' book. There my black cory's are listed as Corydoras Aeneus 'BLACK'. It even says that they are found in the wild.

That leaves me totally confused

I would love to know what they really are

[MatsP]

Catalog of fishes holds C. schultzei in synonymy with C. aeneus. I'm not entirely sure what the reason for separating the two on here.

So, it would seem that Aqualog follows the Catalog of fishes naming.

--
Mats

[Joost]

More confusing

Aqualog lists both Corydoras Aeneus and Corydoras Schultzei as different species....

[Marc van Arc]

Could well be; there are many more mistakes to be found in the Aqualogs.

[MatsP]

Besides trivial mistakes, it's entirely possible that the "facts" on the Black fish is based on an interpretation of C. schultzei is the same as C. aeneus, where the entry for C. schultzei comes from an interpretation that C. schultzei is NOT the same as C. aeneus. This is clearly not how it SHOULD be, but making a big book like "ALL Corydoras" (and that clearly HAS to be a big book, with at least 3-500 species of Corydoras available). And some of this is an interpretation - you have to make a choice. Aside from detailed DNA analysis, it is very difficult to say for sure (and Markos Alexandrou would perhaps be able to answer this).

--
Mats

[Joost]

But besides the fact that we are not sure if they are Aeneus or Schultzei, are they a breeding form (which I tend to believe at this moment) or is Aqualog right and are they really found in the wild?

[exasperatus2002]

The only black cory I've found while looking for something else I wanted is listed as aeneus.
http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?f ... uela-.html

[Joost]

But mine are pitch black, with perhaps a bit of an orange shade to their fins.

Sorry for the photo quality.....





bottom of the fish


I have many fry, they look exactly like their parents.

(don't be confused by the Trilineatus and Sterbai fry that are also in this tank.

[exasperatus2002]

I have seen those before. Took me awhile but I found the link.

http://www.corysrus.com/gallery_co_1.htm

To quote the site "This is a black form of C. venezuelanus. The black form appears in a localized area in the Central Llanos, close to the Middle Orinoco. These tributaries are typically slow and very warm. The normal form of C. venezuelanus is found further up the tributaries in the Andes foothills, in cooler water. We are quite sure that it is actually a new species and has not been described scientifically as of today.

C. venezuelanus is restricted to higher altitudes around the Rio Tuy system and Lake Valencia. The black form is only found in the Llanos in drainages of the Orinoco. It is found in warmer waters and does not tolerate cool temperatures like the true C. venezuelanus. When they spawn, the eggs from the "black" fish are smaller and fewer in number. "

[Coryman]

It seem that this debate will go on for eternity.

The true "Black" Cory is a line bred form of what we call C. schultzi. This species was synonymised with C. aeneus by Nijssen back in the 1980's. Those of us that have been heavily into Corys for the last 25 - 30 years or so consider this fish to be a good species in its own right. The so-called "Venezuela black" is indeed a fish that is very dark bodied, but nut entirely black and has redbish brown fins. Shane Linder found this fish in the Llanos in Venezuela some years ago and I am sure you will find his comments about if you check back in the forum archives.

The problem we have with these two fish is simply the trade. As with the comments attached to the picture in the link on the last post, the names are used to maximise the retail value of the fish. And this depends which one the trader has at any given time.

Let me put the record straight one last time.

The true all "Black" Cory is a line bred fish produced in Germany in the mid 1990's from a fish we call C. schultzi, some of these fish were sold to breeders in the Czech republic, where they have been produced in there thousands ever since and subsequently spread all over the world. The confusing part between the two "Blacks" is that youngsters of the German developed fish show reddish brown fins, which darken as they mature. As juveniles they resemble the so-called "Venezuela black" A wild form, which may or may not be a distinct species in it's own right.

Ian

C. sp schultzii

Images courtesy Hans-Georg Evers & Corydorasworld.com

C. sp schultzi "Black"

Image courtesy Ian Fuller & Corydorasworld.com

[Joost]

Thanks for the great info!

It is most likely then that I have C. Schultzei 'Black' if I understand you right, since mine have a an all black body.

[racoll]

It seem that this debate will go on for eternity... Let me put the record straight one last time.

It seems there is no cat-elog page for Corydoras sp. "Venezuela black", no photos of this fish under

Corydoras venezuelanus

, and very little information in the

Corydoras schultzei

page.

Disseminating information via the cat-elog will be much more successful than people having to trawl the forum, possibly not finding the information they are after, and then having to explain it to them multiple times.

[MatsP]

Agreed. I will try to summarize the appropriate changes here later on today.

--
Mats

[Shane]

It seems there is no cat-elog page for Corydoras sp. "Venezuela black", no photos of this fish under Corydoras venezuelanus, and very little information in the Corydoras schultzei page.

Disseminating information via the cat-elog will be much more successful than people having to trawl the forum, possibly not finding the information they are after, and then having to explain it to them multiple times.

Sorry to bring up an old topic but I just came across this thread.

I agree with Racoll, but will be the first to admit that it is not easy to capture. The main issue is that we are talking about spp that are not currently considered valid. C. schultzei was synonymised with C. aeneus as was C. venezuelanus(a). So we are trying to distinguish between two forms (one natural and one man-made) of two not valid spp. Including both in the Cat-eLog is technically incorrect.

Ian explains the situation with the man-made color morph of C. schultzei very well and I have paraphrased his information and updated the Cat-eLog entry. My thoughts on C. venezuelanus "black" though is that it should be given its own Cat-eLog entry as C. cf venezuelanus "black."

-Shane

(a) Reis, R.E. 2003 Callichthyidae (Armored catfishes). p. 291-309. In R.E. Reis, S.O. Kullander and C.J. Ferraris, Jr. (eds.) Checklist of the Freshwater Fishes of South and Central America. Porto Alegre: EDIPUCRS, Brasil.