My L134 Breeding efforts

[davej]

Just thought I would document my L134 Leopard frog breeding efforts.
This mirrors a thread on CanadaPleco, but thought it belonged here as well.

I started out with a dozen L134 that I had shipped out from Rich of Canada Pleco.
A fellow hobbyist (2wheelsx2) and I ordered a total of 24 of them along with a few L047 and a L114
They were shipped on Westjet, great service, door to door was in the neighborhood of 8-10 hours.
They all settled in quite happily this was the end Of July 2010.




Up until Dec I saw no real indication of interest in breeding took a few random shots along the way




I experimented with a pleco condo made of cut slate, ended up going back to 5 individual caves after reading apistomasters advice of having enough caves for the males only. Thinking they had too many choices for caves.




On December 12th I saw this the morning I was leaving for 3 weeks holidays, nothing came of it that I could tell.


At the beginning of March I ordered some new caves in a group buy thru a local forum.
I decided to mix and match the different shapes in case the plecos had a preference as to cave shape.
Within a minute or two they were all occupied.




Right around the end of March I noticed a male fanning at the entrance of one of the caves!
Of course I had to flash a flashlight in there to see if there were any eggs. The dad was very protective of the egg clutch and the most I could see was a quick glimpse of the edge of a few eggs.


On April 5th I spotted a baby that was kicked out of the cave by accident so I scooped him up and placed him in a fry saver.


April 8 - On the 8th of April I decided, with this being the first clutch, to place them all in the fry saver to give them the best chance of finding food, I also use the 90 gallon tank as a growout tank for my longfin calico's so lots of competition for food. I wanted to make sure they would be able to get enough food in the first couple of months.
I ended up with a total of 26 from the first clutch.


April 10 - I just recently picked up a macro lens so here are a few pictures 2 days later on the 10th.
Pigmentation is already starting to show, you can start to see the stripes already.



April 12 - The yoke sac is fully absorbed and now the fry have taken to clinging to the wood rather than huddling in a group. Pigmentation has kicked in to full gear!
Fry looking like a proper mini pleco now. approximately 8mm long


April 15 - Here is a few shots to document the changes. Now around 10-11mm long




April 18 - A few new shots, seem to be taking on a bit of the yellow coloration of the adults. Not sure if its just a trick of the lighting or not. I think it is actual pigmentation of the fry. I'd say 10-12mm long now. Some a little bigger than others.



April 22 - Here's an update.
Man these guys put on size fast. They seem to be growing at twice the rate of my longfin calico babies. As you can see they are good eaters and have fat little bellies.
In the 12-14mm range I'd say, just an eyeball guesstimate. Looking like nice little copies of the parents.






April 25 - Figured it was time for an update
Man oh man do these guys ever put on size fast compared to the longfin calico's. They are now about twice their original length but as for mass its amazing to see the difference. They eat like pigs and always have bulging little bellies. They are from 12-15mm and they are starting to color up more as well.
Don't want to jinx things but I have another male that has had his girl trapped in a cave for the last couple of days.






May 1 - Here are a few new pictures

Time for an update, they sure have put on some size in the last five days.
They are coloring up nice and the striping is becoming more obvious




I'm watching you!


May 3 - I took the cave out that most hide in when the lights are on, to clean any trapped gunk from under it. I took the opportunity to snap a few shots here's one. Still putting on lots of size, biggest ones up around 15mm I'd guess.



May 7 - All right so I decided it was time for the young'uns to experience a little of the real world. Tonight I released them into the main tank to fend for themselves.
They are up in the 16-18mm size now.
Here is a couple of pics


Making new friends

More new friends


Here's a little guy on a heater for size comparison


May 28thThought I would post an update, things are going well. Man do these guys ever grow fast!






June 13

Just thought I 'd post a new vid to show the growth on these guys as well as some of the newer additions.Going on 5 clutches so far.



July 10

Parents are still pumping out clutches, 8 so far with another female trapped in a cave.
Here is a quick video of the youngsters feeding

[toddnbecka]

Looking great, I have 6 that I've been waiting on to start spawning. Got them last year, think they're just about mature enough now from the looks of them. Need to get some proper caves though.

[MatsP]

Very nice.

--
Mats

[corybrummie2010]

Congrats and well done on the spawning
I love to have a group of these beautiful Pleco one day
Thank you for sharing with us

[plecomanpat]

You had quite the pleco apartment building going there ,Nice work

[Shaun]

Congrats on the spawning, great set of pics too
What sort of water parameters do you have in the tank? pH etc
Shaun

[apistomaster]

Congratulations on the spawn. My formerly reliable breeding group has not spawned yet this spring.
I had my wild breeders for 2-1/2 years before they first spawned. They had until this spring, always begun spawning between Feb. 15 and March 15 but I estimate them to be about 9 years old and maybe they are getting too old to breed or breed much more; their spawning season as I have always experienced it ends around Sept 15th. It seems your experience has been similar to mine in many ways.

I just set up a couple of 40 gal breeder tanks with about 20 fish each and I only provided 6 caves. All the caves are occupied and I presume by dominant males. Last year some F1 females spawned with my old males producing 12 to 15 fry per spawn as compared to 25 to 35 I had usually from the old wild fish. In the past 4 years I have only had 2 or 3 fry appear in the middle of the winter when mine normally do not spawn and even that only happened once.

It is too soon to know if the new groups of 3 year+ F1 L134 will spawn this year, I think they could but I also think they need sometime to become comfortable in newly set up breeding tank and they may just wait until next spring to spawn.

What troubles me about breeding L134's is that they do not necessarily require any special effort although it has been my custom to begin keeping them in softer water a month or so prior to when I expect them to spawn but I leave my fry in the breeding tank until they are numerous and most are 5/8" to 3/4" and I acclimate them to tap water prior to removing them and I have had the breeders spawn just fine in my tap water. After I harvest the fry I again lower the hardness by using RO replacement water after a water change. That may not be necessary since I have had as good results when they were in plain tap water. My water has a pH of 7.4. The TDS varies from 240 to 340 ppm depending on which of the 6 wells the city happens to be using. I really can't put my finger on anything in particular that will induce them to spawn. They have been seasonal spawners for me and I lean towards thinking the when is more important than the exact water chemistry. I have never put much effort into them, mainly I have relied on patience and keeping up with the basics of pleco husbandry. I only feed the frozen blood worms, earth worm sticks and sometimes live black worms in a cereal bowl.
But as of last summer, I did learn for myself that 2 year old F1 females could breed successfully.
I have only had one instance where fertile eggs were ejected from a cave and thus had to resort to artificial hatching. I used a bare 4.5 gal tank equipped with only an air stone and heater. The fry from that brood all survived and I had about 25 but they were not as vigorous nor as fast growing as young left in the breeding tanks but the differences disappeared by 6 months of age.

For me the real question is now whether the tank raised fish will be any easier than the wild specimens to breed. Generally among most tropical fish the tank raised generations are easier to breed. They only know life in captivity and they are presumably free of the various parasites most wild fish normally live with without any great problems unless the fish get stressed and run down and the parasites get the upper hand.

I like the back wall 'condos' you provided. I have often considered trying that.
Since I had only 2 breeding trios in the past i only kept 3 caves in the tank and stacked pieces of Malaysian bog wood on top of the caves and spanning them to provide the females some hiding places. I encourage the growth of free floating Hornwort and just thin the stuff if it grows to thick. I sure hope the tank raised fish are easier to breed but as i said they trouble me. In the scheme of things, it seems to me like there are far more of us pleco hobbyists trying to breed L134's but that compared to the numbers of people trying to breed Hypancistrus zebra, the H. zebra breeders are more frequently successful yet I do not consider H. zebra much easier to breed than L134. I guess what I am saying is I don't understand why more people aren't successful breeding L134. I do not know if I will be able to duplicate my previous success but with the 3 year old F1's. Intellectually, I see no reasons why I shouldn't be able to breed them again but I also do not take it for granted that I will be able to produce them in large numbers with the new groups I set up to breed. I do not think any one is doing anything wrong by following the general advice for breeding any of these smaller Hypancistrus or Peckoltia species. That is all I have ever done. I have no secret methods. I know of quite a few people whose L134 have bred once or twice but only obtained 4 to 6 fry. I know that is not normal for L134.
I have sold well over 600 of them not counting the ~200 which have been ordered this year but not sent out yet due to the unseasonably cold weather here in the Pacific Northwestern USA. That means just my own past years' customers, who all bought 6 or more of my L134, are of breeding age now and none have ever reported back any successful spawns. I find this surprising because there are a large number of people who have my fish which are plenty old enough to have bred by now.
I did hear back this spring from a customer who bought 6 of my 1 year old L333 last year and he wrote to tell me his L333 from me had bred and produced fry. They are only 2 years old.

[davej]

Updated original post with new pictures

[longfinman]

I received 6 F-1 L134s from apistomaster July 2008. I haven't had any success in breeding mine
yet. I feed them shrimp and earthworm sticks, bloodworms,and blackworms. They are in a heavily
planted 40 gallon breeder. They sure look big enough to breed, and I'll sure let you know when they do.

[2wheelsx2]

I'm hoping I get some action from the 5 I have concurrently, but hoping to add a few more to increase my chances.

[davej]

Updated original post again with new pictures.
Don't want to jinx things but I have another male that has had his girl trapped in a cave for the last couple of days.

[davej]

Posted up a few new pictures at the end of original post.

[Birger Amundsen]

Nice:)

[MarcW]

Good work, they look great!

I am hoping mine will spawn soon! I have been keeping them in very soft water since i got them around pH6 and 60-80 ppm TDS, with no activity apart from some false fanning. So I am trying to simulate a dry season for a few months (harder water 150-200ppm TDS and pH 7) with some heavy feeding then going back to softer cooler water to see if that helps.

Good luck with raising the fry.

[Elwood]

well done!

[Matt30]

Mate nice breading cave setup congratulations on the fry

[apistomaster]

P. compacta fry do grow very fast. They can easily reach 5 cm TL within 4-1/2 months and well cared for specimens can reach 7 cm or more within 10 to 12 months. Of the species I have bred, only L333 comes close to growing as fast as P. compta.

Do you have any idea how old your breeders are and whether they are wild or tank raised.

My wilds have still not bred yet after 3 consecutive and very productive years. They are possibly about 9 years old as they were 2-3/4 inches(~7 cm TL) when I bought them but they did not spawn until after I had already been keeping them. That was some 6 years ago. I know of H. zebra breeding at 13 or more years old but they develop much slower than P. compta so I think they have a slightly shorter breeding life span than H. zebra.
I am maintaining the original group but have also set up 2-40 gal breeders with 3 year old plus with about 20 in each. I will remove any obvious males not claiming caves as I use only 6 caves and I'm sure there are more males than there are caves.
I try to have a ratio of 1:2 to 1:2.5 males to females.

I use soft water just before and then throughout their breeding season which has always been between about March 1 and Sept 15 for me except one winter 4 or 5 fry appeared but I get 20 to 35 fry from most spawns and a median of 25. None of my P. compata have bred this year but they were so predictable in the past. Only their increased age is different. None of my wild fish ever exceeded 9.5 cm in TL.

[davej]

Hi Larry,

I purchased them back in July 2010 from Rich of Canada Pleco.
As far as I know they are wild caught. They have definitely put on some size since I purchased them.
Right now they are in a 90 gallon with around a 100 longfin calico bristle nose youngsters that I am growing out. Do you think having all those juveniles in the same tank will have any effect on growth?
I am happy to report that I have another male fanning a clutch of eggs.
They were laid last night or today sometime.

[2wheelsx2]

Nice one Dave. Your tank is turning into a froggie factory.

[apistomaster]

The Bushy Nose fry will probably have little effect on whether or not the P. compta fry grow well up to a point. I have had up to 80 fry in a 20 Long holding 6 breeders. I accumulate enough fry to justify going in and having to chase them down and remove them in order to make room for newer fry. Usually when the fry are 1/2" to 5/8". But under your circumstances, I would remove all the Bushy nose and give the tank over to just the P. compta. If you do that you should be able to raise all your fry with the adults. That is how I raise L333 but for those I use 40 gal breeder tanks. I just sell the largest youngsters first to allow the smaller fry more room and time to grow. I have always sold mine at about 1 year old when they are close to 2-1/2 inches. No one ever complains about receiving good sized plecos but not everyone is happy to receive 1 inch fry.
A 90 could easily grow out about 150 P. compta fry and maintain your breeders.
I set up my 2 new P. compta breeding groups in 40's and used more potential breeders. As I mentioned above, I will remove excess males when I am sure of their sex. I allowed only 6 caves but can add females as needed until I have about 6 males and 12 females.
I have a hypothesis that if you provide only enough caves for your males and wood, potted plants and bog wood for the females to hide in, the competition between the females helps to get them to breed. If every pleco has a cave then all the females will use them too and time spent inside a cave alone is wasting a female's time. Females wanting to spawn are quite competitive for a male's attention.
On one occasion, I had two females spawn consecutively with one male. That instance yielded about 55 fry. Prior to that, I only had this happen with common Albino Bushy Noses.

All my experience indicates that P. compta are seasonal breeders but I do think that when a pair spawns it releases pheromones in the tank water which can help the others in the tank to breed.

[davej]

Decided it was time to release the youngsters from the fry-saver into the main tank. Stole a new clutch of eggs from another spawn and put them into the fry saver. last time I waited till they hatched this time I didn't. this second father didn't fan the eggs near as much as the first.
Added a few new pictures to the first post.
Enjoy

[davej]

Note to self (and others), leave mother nature or maybe father in this case, to do its business.
Lost whole batch in frysaver to fungus. 47 eggs kaput. Wont do that again.
Luckily dad is sitting on yet another batch of eggs already.

Also shook out the male that has had a female trapped for going on 2 weeks now. figured she might be a little hungry.
Not sure if this was the right move, just didn't want her dying in there. Saw her swim off right after. She may just head right back don't know. Figured best giver her a fighting chance.
Anybody else have input on this?

[davej]

Updated first post with new video and pics.

[apistomaster]

I have posted many times that I believe it is best to allow the male to provide all the brood care. There are no down sides as the newly released fry are ignored by the other adult breeders in the tank and they get off to a good start. I leave the fry in the breeding tank until they have tripled or more their initial size because you are less likely to harm them when you net them out. Netting new fry is difficult to do without accidentally harming a few of the very small fry.

Occasionally a male will entrap a female for an extended time but she is rarely going to suffer any serious damage. This close contact between the pair is sometimes necessary for the female to develop fully ripe eggs. If she truly wants out she can get out. She too is waiting for her eggs to ripen. The courtship behavior that goes on inside the cave where we can not see is causing each fish to move closer to synchronizing their readiness to spawn. She may incur some damage during this period but anyone who has bred Bettas is familiar with how much damage a male may inflict upon his mate but as long as the water is clean, these superficial injuries heal quickly. The same applies to plecos.
Very rarely a female does die as a result of her injuries but that is a chance worth taking. Any interference during the trapped phase may postpone a future spawning by weeks to months.

[Jools]

I agree with Larry, the only reason to use nursery tanks is when the eggs are kicked out of the cave. They are a lot of work and, IMHO, the skill is in keeping the male happy enough to guard them to fruition.

Nice thread BTW.

Jools

[davej]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the input.

[mangopleco]

Great Job i have wanted to try to breed them whats your tank conditions?

[davej]

I have 11 adults in a 90 gallon tank and use 5 caves, the D shaped ones have seen all the breeding action if that make a difference. My water temp is 84 F. The water here in Vancouver is super soft, don't really fuss to much with hardness, just add some buffers at each water change to keep the GH and KH to at least 3.PH is usually around 6.5. I feed mostly earthworm sticks, I use an eheim autofeeder set to dispense in the middle of the night, the fish are way more active and out of their caves in the middle of the night. I also periodicaly feed zucchini, the odd algae wafer, NLS pellets and blood worms. I do a 25% water change each weekend and other than that the rest is up to them.

[mangopleco]

thank you so much for the helpful info i will let you know what happens in my tank thanks again Joe

[apistomaster]

The shapes of the caves are not important as long as two fish can barely squeeze in. They do like a fairly deep cave, 6 inches/30 cm.
I have bred both my wild and my F1 tank raised fish in tap water with a pH of 7.4, KH 6*, 8*GH and a TDS of about 350 ppm.
A diet of frozen blood worms and earth worm sticks has proven to suffice. I am not arguing against a more varied diet but just explaining how minimal an approach one can take and still be very successful at breeding P. compta.

That first spawn is always the hardest. Once they have begun to spawn they tend to continue regardless of the water chemistry within reason. I think with wild fish it helps to use soft water with a KH of 3*KH at first. The pH in water with a KH of 3* will usually drop in an aquarium to within a range L134 will spawn. If it doesn't then perhaps you have an excessive amount of dissolved Magnesium sulfate(GH)
So getting that first spawn is often easier if you try very soft water with a pH between 6.0 and 7.4. It then becomes more a matter of having fish with a desire to spawn.
Mine have always been seasonal spawners beginning in early March and winding up around August 30 but others have had successful spawns in the winter. I haven't had but one spawn in the winter and that only produced 5 or 6 fry instead of my average size of 25 but the range has been from 20 to 35 fry.
Using as large a group as possible is desirable but the females should out number males by 2:1. So you may need to begin with more fish than you think if you want to end up with a larger spawning group. I think competition between breeding size females does much to drive spawning success.
I think the latter is true among most pleco species. My smallest and first breeding group of wild P. compta was comprised of 2 males and 3 females.