Buffering L046 tank

[Matt30]

Hi everyone
I have a question about using a buffer (Waterlife 6.5 Buffer) my PH is 7.5 which I know is
high but I'm using half RO and half treated tape water and big filtration EHEIM 2215 and the inturnal filter my Juwel 125 Rio came with lots of o2 in the water and Temp 27 .I don't have a big bio load etc.
So guess I should be using a buffer ?
On the tube is says for ornamental fish only what dose this mean?
I understand this will take around 4 weeks to do safely but will I have do this forever?
Just a bit worryed about making any changes In my tank (using buffers)

Any help would be great

[MatsP]

pH isn't the key point. It's the conductivity of the water that is more important. I'm not saying it's hugely important either. There are several breeders on this forum that breed Zebras in pretty hard water.

To your direct question: any product that buffers the pH will ADD to the conductivity. This is exactly the opposite of what the fish wants.

When we get given the pH "ideal" values, it reflects the conductivity of the natural water. High conductivity happens in mineral-rich water, which usually is caused by calcium mineral, which brings the pH up. In soft, low-conductivity water, the pH is normally low.

I would just add enough RO water to get the TDS/Conductivity to where you want it (TDS of about 70-150 is probably appropriate).

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Cheers Mats but if I use more R/O would I have to supplement not using so much
Treated tape water as I'm using 50/50 at the min.To get the parameters how I want them at a wild guess I would have to use 20% tap and 80% R/0 What would the best way of supplementing such a drop in the tap water ? As I understand it there are lots of good stuff fish need in the tap water and there is nothing in R/0.
Hope I'm making sense

[MatsP]

Wihtout knowing what you are trying to achieve, I mean water parameter wise, rather than the "Good conditins for my L046" - the latter is probably a bit difficult to pin down.

I would suggesst getting a TDS meter, and checking with your water company what the water in your area is like.

Assuming your tap-water have a TDS of 300, mixing 50/50 RO + tap, you would get about 160ppm TDS - half of 300 + half of about 10-15 (5% of 300).

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Ok cheers Mats I will get a TDS meter and to answer your question I just want
good conditions only as I have five juvenal's

[MatsP]

Bear in mind that they it's probably more important to have stable conditions than "right" conditions.

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Sorry Mats (Stable conditions) do you mean if it anit broke don't fix it ? the main resone I'm concerned is my zebars respiratory rate seem a bit rapid hence my worry Re my PH etc.

[MatsP]

I mean that you should have stable pH and TDS - it shouldn't vary up and down. If you drop the TDS (conductivity), do it fairly slowly.

--
Mats

[Matt30]

I plan on droping TDS/PH both over four weeks

Cheers for all your advice Mats

[reeferman 1]

Hi again, thats the problem I have.Matt30 is using R/O and tap water to get a TDS to70 to 150 but he's buffering for his PH.I'm using R/O DI system that give's me a PH of 6.4 and TDS of 14 so I add R/O Right to my water in 32 gal trash can and I add the right amount my PH stay's at 6.4 but my TDS goes to what I looking for if I put more the TDS goes up and with less if goes down my TDS is about 100. I use the R/O DI because my well is high in iron.Steve

[MatsP]

If your RO/DI water is 14 ppm TDS, then I would suspect you need to renew the DI resin, as that combintion should give you about 2-3ppm TDS...

But yes, pure RO water mixed with some suitable mix of minerals that have a KH buffer to a TDS of around 100 ppm will be good too. The exact pH you get depends on the proportion of buffer and other minerals in the RO-remineralizng product.

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Hi I just got a bucket and added 1 cup of tap water
I then had to add 7 cups of R/0 just to get my PH to
7!!!! so Im forgetting tap water all together just going to
use R/O with supplements.

[MatsP]

Like I said earlier: pH is not important. TDS/conductivity is what matters to the fish (unless your pH is outside of 5 - 9). If your water is very low in buffer capacity, a small amount of pH changing compound will alter the pH a lot. If there is more buffer in the water,the pH will change much less for the same addition of acid or alkali compounds.

Think of it as a see-saw - alkali pushes down on one side, acid on the other. Now, when you add a buffer, it's like if you put a set of springs in the middle of the see-saw that makes it harder to lift/push down the ends of the see-saw.

Generally speaking, the common buffer in water is "carbonate hardness" or "KH", which is working along the principle of "bicarbonate buffer".

But if you want to use pure RO water, then you need to get some RO re-mineralizing product (I use TMC Tropical Re-Mineralizer, there are several other products). Without this, your water will be entirely unstable.

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Ok so can I just use a buffer and tap water and forget R/O

[MatsP]

So, this goes back to the original point of:
1. It depends on what you are wanting to achieve.
2. pH buffer compounds that you add to water just adds MORE conductivity - and most people agree that conductivity is more important than pH.
3. You need a pH buffer to keep the water stable and pH within reasonable range.

I bet your water is quite hard (which means high conductivity), and pH around 7.5-7.8 if you live in Surrey and use tap-water. TDS for my water here in Farnborough, near the border to Surrey, is around 400 ppm.

So adding a pH buffer that lowers the pH will not make your water MORE suitable for your fish.

In conclusion: If you want to make your water low pH and suitable for soft water fish, then you need to remove hardness, because you want LOW conductivity as well as LOW pH.

--
Mats

[Matt30]

Ok cheers for being so patient with me and cheers for all your help Mats

[racoll]

Hi.

Just to agree with what MatsP said...

Using 50/50 RO and tapwater is a very wise idea.

I think Surrey tapwater would be around 300-400ppm TDS, so 50/50 would bring it down to 150-200ppm TDS.

This would be perfect for your zebras - not too hard, but with a decent buffering capacity to stop pH swings.

Forget about pH. Do measure it, but don't agonise over the results. Zebras will breed in water of pH 8.0. You only need to worry about pH when keeping blackwater fishes.

Also, ditch those buffers - they are very easy way to kill healthy fish with dangerous pH swings.

Here is some more info, which you may find useful.

[Matt30]

Hi racoll
When you say using Buffers are not a good idea do you mean PH crashes
due to Big bio load ect.
Also after chatting to Mats I thought I would just keep using half R/O and half tap water and just use a 6.5 PH Buffer as every time I use my test kit it reads 7.5 but it could be anything ( The test only gos to 7.5 ) so I don't realy know what the PH is.
Cheers for the link it was intresting

[racoll]

When you say using Buffers are not a good idea do you mean PH crashes

Not necessarily, pH crashes per se, just unstable, bouncing pH.

These buffers contain simply a mixture of acids and alkalis, which when added to pure (zero TDS) RO water, neutralise each other and balance at the desired pH (as reported on the packet).

When these are added to water already containing alkalinity (i.e. TDS) they can't get to the desired pH. The water also takes a fair while to balance and undergo all the chemical reactions between all the different types of acids and alkalis. When you add all this to the tank with the acids and alkalis in there too, the pH could rebound several times and go up, down, left, right and backwards! Not good for the fish at all.

[Matt30]

So just live with PH at 7.5+ and like you say at least it
will be stable

[racoll]

Yeah, not a problem at all. Stability is what you should always aim for.

Those chemical kits are rubbish, and almost certainly if after a few weeks of using the 50/50 mix, you tested your tank water with an accurate electronic meter your pH would be closer to 7 than 8 anyway.

Case in point, I always thought (from those chemical kits) my tapwater (back in UK) was super alkaline (8+), but when tested with an electronic pH meter it was actually 7.5.

Another option is to get a water report from you local authority, and these will have really accurate, analytical grade measurements of your tapwater.

[Matt30]

Ok cheers for that Racoll going to take yours and Mats advice get a TDS meter
and just keep doing what I have always done 50/50.
The fella at my lfs told me if I didn't sort my PH out if my Zebs had fry they would all be deformed !!! .
Anyway all my Zebs have a great blue tint on all fins so can't be all that bad !

Cheers for the advice mate

[racoll]

The fella at my lfs told me if I didn't sort my PH out if my Zebs had fry they would all be deformed !!! .

Nobody really knows exactly what causes deformed loricariid fry (there are several threads on the subject here), but the consensus is that poor water quality and high bacterial levels are the most likely cause.

If you do want a slightly lower pH, then just mix a slightly different ratio of RO to tapwater, maybe 75/25. This should give you a TDS of about 100, which buffers to around neutral in my experience.

Just don't whatever you do, try to measure pH in the bucket when you make up the water. It will mislead you, and won't represent what's happening in the tank. Just keep monitoring the tank (especially before and after water changes).

Always remember to keep the water changes regular though, because as you increase RO proportion you will decrease buffer capacity, meaning more careful attention is needed to make sure buffers are always replenished and pH remains stable.