Panaque titan L418 or L191?

[ColumbianChocolate]

Could not resist this 2" Panaque at the weekend. I thought it maybe a L191 with a pretty tail fin but its stripes are thinner and head shape is slightly different compared to my 5" L191s. Its dorsal fin and tail fin are slightly ragged and incomplete to see a gold trim. What does everyone think? Heres the little fella in question!

[megacat]

It's odd looking. Just from the tail I would say l418.

Edit-sorry I asked if you just bought it. Obviously you did lol

I'm sort of confused to me in the profile of the l-191 some of the pics don't look like any young l-191 that I have seen in person or of others who have posted pics. Or any I own that were young/small at one point.

Two of my P.titans look like yours but they are a vibrant green. They have a slim head just like you said yours does. My other two are vibrant green but don't have the nice pattern outlining the whole tail,just half on one and bits on the other. they too have the slim heads. Mine came from a very reputable importer. I doubt he has the ID on them wrong. They came from Peru is what he told me.
I don't want to drop his name in the thread because it just not right to do. This does not concern him. I can tell it through PM if someone is interested in knowing.

I will take some pics of them so you can see why I'm confused.

Maybe some of the pics in the

l191

profile are wrong? This is an innocent question.

[mod edit: Jools: added clog tags]

[ColumbianChocolate]

Thanks megacat
Some pics would be great. The little pleco is more vibrant green than the photos make out, I suppose the only way to know for sure is if it grows well over 12" in decades to come..lol. Here is a close up of its face it maybe will help

[matthewfaulkner]

It's L191 for me. Juvenile L418 have orange/red eyes. The price should also reflect what it is, L418 are about 2-3 times more expensive than similar sized L191.

[ColumbianChocolate]

Thanks Matthew
Do you know if its tail fin will stay a pretty pattern as it gets bigger or does the white bits fade to green?
Yeah i paid the average price you would pay for a L191 but they where advertised as L027. I knew it couldnt be L027 as again the price would have been very expensive, the tail fin is just unusual.

[matthewfaulkner]

Yes, the tail pattern will gradually disappear as the fish ages and grows, it will turn solid green. At about 15cm all remnants of the juvenile tail pattern will be absent.

[megacat]

Yes, the tail pattern will gradually disappear as the fish ages and grows, it will turn solid green. At about 15cm all remnants of the juvenile tail pattern will be absent.

This is what confuses me. The pics in the profile show fish that look to be over 3" with the tails still having the pattern on them and not being all green like you say. The ones I see come in here labeled as l-191 do not have the pattern on the tail at 3" and their body colour is almost grey not green. For lack of better words they are very ugly fish when compared to other large/potentially large Panaque. When I bought mine at 2"TL their tails were filled in.
Could it just be the location most of the l-191 we get produces a darker less attractive fish even at a young age? Also their tails are very transparent when the are not solid and filled in. We get really small ones at time like 1" TL

The eyes of my P. Titans are not red/orange they are more of a maroon colour. same goes for some of my l-27's. So I don't think the eye colour is 100% acrurate. If it was would it not mean that the dull eyed/191would be the only one with this feature?

[megacat]

Thanks megacat
Some pics would be great. The little pleco is more vibrant green than the photos make out, I suppose the only way to know for sure is if it grows well over 12" in decades to come..lol. Here is a close up of its face it maybe will help

I'm guessing you think they only hit 10" like the PC profile says. This can't be true because I have seen a 24" l191 in person just before the new years. I was speechless. Also on the Singapore site there are guys claiming with pics that their l191's are 24"+. A friend of mine just sold his that was over 10" last month.

I'm going to ask if I can post a pic of his smaller ones. To me they are the perfect example of a dull eye. Light grey dirty pattern and dark eyes.

[2wheelsx2]

That looks just like my 5" L191. And yes, the Cat-e-Log is not reflecting what the ultimate size is, just what keepers have kept them to, as I've also seen 14 - 16" L191 in pictures on the internet.

[megacat]

That looks just like my 5" L191. And yes, the Cat-e-Log is not reflecting what the ultimate size is, just what keepers have kept them to, as I've also seen 14 - 16" L191 in pictures on the internet.

Did you get yours from Canadianaquatics? Or maybe a place they supply to? If you did it's not a 191. They sell P.Titan as 191 at least the last time I saw they were.

Price is not a good way to determin what a fish is. I do it sometimes but it is in no way to ID a fish. As consumers we are stuck thinking that way.

I'm not saying I seen pics on of large 191. I have seen a few in person and there have been a few in our LFS here as well. Selling for $1000+ 18"+ tail not included.

I'm not desputing the fact that the fish in question is or could be a 191.

I will point out a few things that I question as facts based on my experiences from my own fish to all the fish I have helped unpack or sell.
To me eye colour means nothing. Like I said I have P.Titans with maroon like eyes not orange/red. Same goes for a few l27 I own.

The other thing that's thrown around that is said to help ID or differentiate the two when small/young is tail shape. To me this fish has a broad tail that looks to be in great shape and not ragged. That means P.Titan if you choose to trust that. The 191 is said to have a crescent like tail when small/young. I dont see that here. The fish in question is 2" that is small/young to me.
One of my P.Titans has a crescent shaped tail @ 6"TL and I am 100% sure mine are not 191. Pics to come. The rest who are larger 7"-8" don't have this. All from the same importer bought at the same time. Labeled as location Peru no l# given. The two with nice tails have bright yellow colour on them.
So I'm curious are these methods speculation or fact?

I think the importers screw up a lot of labeling and this is why people/LFS don't know what they have. I gave a perfect example above.

Last time my buddy brought in 191 they looked like I said. Dirty pattern, light grey in colour and the eyes were dark. They were 3"TL and the price was not cheap $45 a pop retail. Sort of surprised me. They came in as Panaque Colombia no L#. The importer who I bought my P.Titans from had 191 for sale labled as Putumayo. They looked as I said I'm used to seeing but much larger (10"+) than the ones my buddy brought in.

Maybe there are a few variations( if that's what you call it ) of both. I don't know but I would really like to find out. I do know that most forums profiles on both don't say too much and I swear I keep seeing P.Titans in old pictures labeled 191. I think the need to be looked over.

This is just what I have seen and experienced. I know I don't have wadders on or diving gear exploring the rivers. I just want a good informative explanation.

[charles]

I don't know where this fish is from. But if my company name has mentioned, I thought I would say something.

L418 does not have red or maroon eye. It is all dark. I have imported L418 2 years ago. Not anymore as price of them are higher now. None of the L418 I have imported less than 6", most were 8". They all showed beautiful olive green with solid yellow trim at the tail, and no glassy transparent on the tail. And none of those were from Columbia.

[megacat]

I don't know where this fish is from. But if my company name has mentioned, I thought I would say something.

L418 does not have red or maroon eye. It is all dark. I have imported L418 2 years ago. Not anymore as price of them are higher now. None of the L418 I have imported less than 6", most were 8". They all showed beautiful olive green with solid yellow trim at the tail, and no glassy transparent on the tail. And none of those were from Columbia.

I will agree you don't know and did not know. You did have them mislabeled you can't lie about that. Like you are trying to now. Have some integrity. I understand you want to protect your company but people are allowed to speak the truth.

If you want to lie more create a thread telling us how great you company is. You have no useful input. You needed a someone half way across the world to tell you that the fish you were selling were not labeled correctly. He posted in this thread. People don't forget.

[matthewfaulkner]

L418 does not have red or maroon eye. It is all dark.

Granted, I've only seen one batch of L418 from Peru, but these all had orange eyes at sizes between 15-18cm.

[charles]

I don't know where this fish is from. But if my company name has mentioned, I thought I would say something.

L418 does not have red or maroon eye. It is all dark. I have imported L418 2 years ago. Not anymore as price of them are higher now. None of the L418 I have imported less than 6", most were 8". They all showed beautiful olive green with solid yellow trim at the tail, and no glassy transparent on the tail. And none of those were from Columbia.

I will agree you don't know and did not know. You did have them mislabeled you can't lie about that. Like you are trying to now. Have some integrity. I understand you want to protect your company but people are allowed to speak the truth.

If you want to lie more create a thread telling us how great you company is. You have no useful input. You needed a someone half way across the world to tell you that the fish you were selling were not labeled correctly. He posted in this thread. People don't forget.

I don't have to tell people how great my company is. People trust my company and we have many repeat customers ordering from me over and over. I don't know how you get impression of us sending L418 as L191. We stopped importing L418 2 years ago. The last order was 10 L418 just to replace a hobbyist who wanted to order 7. I went ahead and ordered them without taking a deposit which I should because he ended up not wanting to pay for them.

Please tell me who I sold a L418 to as a L191?

[prairiefire]

It would seem pointless to me to try and pass of L-418 as L-191 as L-191's are not that expensive via wholesale. Any dealings I have had with Charles have always been straight up.

[charles]

L418 does not have red or maroon eye. It is all dark.

Granted, I've only seen one batch of L418 from Peru, but these all had orange eyes at sizes between 15-18cm.

After checking with my older photos, I found a photo with the 2 L418 from Peru (same batch) one being dark eye, one being orange eye. I do have a photo of 2 fish same batch with different color eyes.

[Birger]

Any dealings I have had with Charles have always been straight up.

As has been the case for me.

Lets keep this thread on the original topic please.

Birger

Also megacat if you can provide a picture of a properly identified fish with some sort of device as a measurement we can certainly update the Cat-eLog but until we have solid proof we have to go with what we have.

[megacat]

.............

[megacat]

Any dealings I have had with Charles have always been straight up.

As has been the case for me.

Lets keep this thread on the original topic please.

Birger

Also megacat if you can provide a picture of a properly identified fish with some sort of device as a measurement we can certainly update the Cat-eLog but until we have solid proof we have to go with what we have.

Sorry I posted before I saw what you added.

These P.Titans are not big fish they are 5''-7'' maybe 8'' with tail being the largest. I was not saying the sizes for these is off. I was talking about l-191.

I will get someone who can take a picture come by in the near future so they are worth using, if they are to be used. Not these preschool shots I end up with.

[ColumbianChocolate]

Thanks for the pics megacat
They are gorgeous royals , the P. titan have lovely golden tail colour. Hope my pleco keeps its tail marking but if it doesnt i love L191s anyway .I think it is most probably L191 as the white on its tail has no hint of golden colour. I will send another picture in if the pattern or colour changes thanks everyone

[megacat]

Thanks for the pics megacat
They are gorgeous royals , the P. titan have lovely golden tail colour. Hope my pleco keeps its tail marking but if it doesnt i love L191s anyway .I think it is most probably L191 as the white on its tail has no hint of golden colour. I will send another picture in if the pattern or colour changes thanks everyone

My pleasure

Both ways your fish is a keeper.

Looking forward to new pics.

[Jools]

Maybe some of the pics in the

l191

profile are wrong? This is an innocent question.

I've had a look and I can't see any that look wrong to me. Happy to look into it further, post which specific image(s) and a short description of why in the bugs forum and we'll take a look. As to the size, I think that is plain wrong (actually, out of date, it's only recently we've began to understand what these things grow into) and needs updated - again a post in the bugs forum would sort that.

Cheers,

Jools