Revision of Panaque

[taksan]

Nathan just send me a copy of the revision, and I asked about L191 and L330 - he said that there were no specimens in the collections. Anyone got a large dollop of money for an expedition?

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Mats

Auburn are pretty good at asking for ca$h ....

[MatsP]

Auburn are pretty good at asking for ca$h ....

I'm sure they are - but I was more thinking for myself to go and help them... ;)

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Mats

[racoll]

As to difficulty of obtaining museum specimens and their relative scarcity, I am entirely sure that keeping preserved big fish is hard and likely expensive. Anyone know the average size of fish? (e.g. all species sizes added together and divided by the number of species - note to self must do this for all catfishes). It would be interesting to see where these things fit on that scale. But then, how often is it that an organism this big is described to science?

I think a big problem too, is the logistics of moving these creatures around. They are huge, and have to be fixed in the field with appropriate equipment, and then transported somehow back to the USA or wherever.

To have a decent type series, plus comparative material from other localities, certainly requires a lot of planning, equipment, freight costs and packaging.

Probably easier to work on tetras!

[Suckermouth]

Nathan just send me a copy of the revision, and I asked about L191 and L330 - he said that there were no specimens in the collections. Anyone got a large dollop of money for an expedition?

--
Mats

Auburn are pretty good at asking for ca$h ....

Indeed, but AFAIK Jon has no plans for a Colombian expedition, where L191 and L330 are found.

[matthewfaulkner]

I thought this was an interesting observation for Panaque armbrusteri, taken from "Ontogenetic variation" on page 681.

"Panaque armbrusteri appears to undergo an ontogenetic increase in interpremaxillary and intermandibular tooth row angles that is unique within Panaque and most other Loricariidae. Juveniles less than 172 mm SL have left and right tooth rows angled at approximately 90° relative to each other, similar to that observed in all body sizes of all other Panaque (Panaque) species. A single 172 mm SL specimen of P. armbrusteri (MZUSP 96388) has left and right tooth rows angled at approximately 100° relative to each other, and all specimens greater than approximately 200 mm SL have left and right tooth rows angled at approximately 120° relative to each other."

This increase in the number and angle of teeth with size suggests to me that their diet also differs with size (and age). I've also noticed this tooth/angle increase in my

Panaque cf_armbrusteri`xingu`

. Does anyone else think this?

To me, it sounds logical that when smaller (with fewer teeth and a more acute angle) that they would tend to feed on harder surfaces because they can gouge wood easier. And conversely, a larger fish (with more teeth and more obtuse angle) would tend to feed softer wood, and scrape/rake more than gouge.

[Suckermouth]

To me, it sounds logical that when smaller (with fewer teeth and a more acute angle) that they would tend to feed on harder surfaces because they can gouge wood easier. And conversely, a larger fish (with more teeth and more obtuse angle) would tend to feed softer wood, and scrape/rake more than gouge.

An interesting hypothesis. I have seen a study on P. nigrolineatus that showed no change in the diet of P. nigrolineatus over 15 years, however P. nigrolineatus doesn't show this ontogenetic change in tooth angle.

[Jools]

Re tooth angles.

Thinking about what they are eating doesn't quite explain why this isn't the case for all

Panaque

(Panaque). Maybe it's more a question of where.

I've collected baby (<1cm TL)

Panaque nigrolineatus

in the submerged tree leaves at the side of the river where you would expect to find

Hypoptopoma

and relatives. Larger juveniles up to 8cm are found within a step or two of the river bank but usually where the water is deep relative to the bank (thigh to chest height - I am 6'2"). As we know the big guys live in the deepest parts of the main channel.

So the wood at the edge of the river is fresher than that which has found its way to the bottom of the main channel. Teeth would develop as the fish moved, or the fish moves as its teeth develop - same net effect. However, why do some species show this and others do not?

It might also be water current. These increasing angle of the jaw pads relative to one another is something we see in fast water loricariids like

Chaetostoma

. This would explain why the adults of some species show this and others do not. They may live in different deep water speeds as adults.

The other thing that bothers me about the large Panaque is where they lay their eggs. I do not think there are many caves big enough for them nor, at least with the upper Amazon fishes, rocks and so on to wedge in between. So, maybe they spawn in depressions of their own creating, possibly on wood and possibly the extra big spines on these fish are used in defence here too. With the renewed focus on this genus, maybe that walnut will crack sometime soon too.

All this conjecture underlines what a good step forward this paper represents as were thinking beyond what the species are.

Jools

[MatsP]

The small species certainly like hollowed out wooden caves. I wouldn't be suprised if the big ones lay eggs in big holes in sunken logs. No knowledge, just logical thinking...

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Mats

[husky_jim]

I wouldn't be suprised if the big ones lay eggs in big holes in sunken logs. No knowledge, just logical thinking...

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Mats

This is in fact the case for the large Acanthicus so why not be the same for the large Panaque's????

[taksan]

The other thing that bothers me about the large Panaque is where they lay their eggs.
Jools

When they are bred in ponds in Asia they lay their eggs in a hole dug under a large piece of wood sunken wood. They usually will not breed without massive current and quite decent depth therefore often a type of long deep raceway type pond is used.

[husky_jim]

The other thing that bothers me about the large Panaque is where they lay their eggs.
Jools

When they are bred in ponds in Asia they lay their eggs in a hole dug under a large piece of wood sunken wood. They usually will not breed without massive current and quite decent depth therefore often a type of long deep raceway type pond is used.

Where have you get this information?is anything documented on breeding them in Asia????....I 've heard this rumor 3 years ago but it was never verified....

[taksan]

The other thing that bothers me about the large Panaque is where they lay their eggs.
Jools

When they are bred in ponds in Asia they lay their eggs in a hole dug under a large piece of wood sunken wood. They usually will not breed without massive current and quite decent depth therefore often a type of long deep raceway type pond is used.

Where have you get this information?is anything documented on breeding them in Asia????....I 've heard this rumor 3 years ago but it was never verified....

They have been bred over there for some time. Some of the farms I went to in Malaysia was breeding them as well as , Pseudacanthicus, Scobinancistrus and huge numbers of Albino and normal gibbies (thousands upon thousands of them) as well as black rays, SA Arrowana's, RTC's and RTC hybrids and a number of other SA species. The number of Panaques they had was staggering.

[husky_jim]

They have been bred over there for some time. Some of the farms I went to in Malaysia was breeding them as well as , Pseudacanthicus, Scobinancistrus and huge numbers of Albino and normal gibbies (thousands upon thousands of them) as well as black rays, SA Arrowana's, RTC's and RTC hybrids and a number of other SA species. The number of Panaques they had was staggering.

Any pics....????

[husky_jim]

They have been bred over there for some time. Some of the farms I went to in Malaysia was breeding them as well as , Pseudacanthicus, Scobinancistrus and huge numbers of Albino and normal gibbies (thousands upon thousands of them) as well as black rays, SA Arrowana's, RTC's and RTC hybrids and a number of other SA species. The number of Panaques they had was staggering.

if this is true...and i won't argue about, then where are all these fish????why we have to desperately wait for a South America import????

I am saying this as i have many friends/shops that are importing from Malaysia/Singapore etc. and i have never see a Panaque/Pseuda/Scobi on their exporters lists....only some zebs a year ago....


p.s.Sorry for spamming the original post if Jools or Mods agree we can split it maybe...

[MatsP]

I suspect that we do see them sometimes in shops, but because a pond with THOUSANDS spread all over Europe, Asia and North America don't go that far. It's like when someone suggests that "Asia will flood the market with Zebra Plecos - someone has <insert large number> ready to ship any time now, and pricese will plummet". Just the chain of Maidenhead Aquatics in England has about 100 shops. Then add a large number of independent stores and a few sets of smaller chains, you don't get that many per shop over a year.

And of course, it's not always it says on the tank whether they are captive bred or wild-caught - in fact, it's rare that it says.

So, it wouldn't surprise me if these fish do turn up in shops. But to flood the market with mature fish of these slow-growing ones, it would take MANY large ponds wih AMAZING number of fish in them... And it's quite possible that survival rates to saleable size isn't that good.

I have seen tiny L128 and tiny

Scobinancistrus aureatus

(tiny = around 4-5cm/1.5-2")in shops - I never asked where they were from - but it wouldn't surprise me if they are from breeders in Asia.

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Mats

[taksan]

Yeah you might be right Mats but certainly with Panaque's you see a quite large numbers of them in Asian shops at around 2" and very cheap too. I remember the Albino gibby's used to be expensive but are not like $2 in Singapore and "babies finger" sized L14's are almost a standard size now in Asia. I've got a feeling that the reason we don't see huge numbers of these fish in Europe is the local Malaysian and Singaporean markets which are very large themselves plus the huge Hong kong, Taiwanese and Japanese markets pretty much get most of them. But a lot of these SA fish species are being bred there and in good numbers with some of them. As for the Zebra's I think the L46 production in Asia has indeed increased massively over the last 3 years but they have small clutches and even with this increase its not coming close to meeting the demand but tank bred Zeb's are very easy to source in both Singapore and Hong Kong and in good quantities ...prices haven't plummeted but they are trending lower.

[lfinley58]

Hi all.

Silurus wrote:

"Common names do not exist as far as scientists are concerned, so this is not an issue (for them)."

Generally I agree that the above statement is valid, but it is not a hard and fast situation. For example, and it fits in nicely with this thread, consider the etymology that was given by S. Schaefer and D.J. Stewart in their original description of Panaque maccus: "From the Latin maccus, for clown or buffoon, in reference to the common name "clown plecostomus" widely used by aquarists for this species."

Lee

[MatsP]

Thanks for that, Lee. I've added the direct quote to the Cat-eLog page, as I think that clarifies where it came from better than the previous wording.

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Mats

[lfinley58]

Hi MatsP,

Great regarding use of the direct etymology quote. That was going to be a topic that I was going to address on the Suggestions and Bugs forum. Whenever it is possible I think that a direct quote from a description is the best way to go.

Lee

[MatsP]

Hi MatsP,

Great regarding use of the direct etymology quote. That was going to be a topic that I was going to address on the Suggestions and Bugs forum. Whenever it is possible I think that a direct quote from a description is the best way to go.

Lee

Absolutely agree - because there is often a comment as to WHY the name was choosen, as well as the (sometimes much less) obvious meaning. To rephrase or omit that bit is clearly loosing some of the original information.

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Mats

[matthewfaulkner]

Here's an online PDF that I found.

[removed link]

[Silurus]

Here's an online PDF that I found.
http://aquazone.gr/images/HUSKY/Panaque.pdf

That's a violation of copyright.

I'm going to have to rethink sending pdf files in the future if people are going to do things like that.

[Birger]

Here's an online PDF that I found.
http://aquazone.gr/images/HUSKY/Panaque.pdf

That's a violation of copyright.

I'm going to have to rethink sending pdf files in the future if people are going to do things like that.

I agree that is not right...if people use PC pictures and info on sites it is frowned upon and they are asked to stop...it would be good if members gave the same consideration to others.

Birger

[Jools]

I'm going to have to rethink sending pdf files in the future if people are going to do things like that.

As it's an action taken outside of this forum, I can't directly take any action. But I would hope huskyjim removes the PDF from public access (or puts a password in front of it) now that its known he's uploaded it...

Jools

[taksan]

I can't see hows its violation of copyright at all. Its posted in its original form, he is not claiming authorship or using the contents of the document in another document and its a free document that is published on the internet. Copyright remains with the authors and he is not claiming any rights over the document. He is only hosting a copy of the document for distribution which as its not a commercial document is hardly a issue. If it was a book or article was published for commercial gain then the matter would be different as it would create the possibility of damages arising but its common practice that scientific articles are widely published in various locations on the web. Its exactly the same as emailing it to someone.

[MatsP]

its a free document that is published on the internet.

It is not free, however. It requires a subscription to download from the official website.
http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/page/subscribe
That may not be a huge amount of money - it probably barely covers the postage and printing...

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Mats

[lfinley58]

Hi all.

Regarding the above discussion of the net publishing of the Panaque revision: Please read the last line on page one. It specifically says "Copyright 2010 by the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists". What is not to understand about this?

Lee

[racoll]

Its posted in its original form, he is not claiming authorship or using the contents of the document in another document... He is only hosting a copy of the document for distribution which as its not a commercial document is hardly a issue.

Err, right then, so its okay for me upload the entire back catalogue of The Beatles, as long as I don't sell it, or pretend that I am simultaneously John, Paul, George and Ringo?

and its a free document that is published on the internet.

No it isn't. If you try to download it from the journal's website, you can't, because you have to PAY!

but its common practice that scientific articles are widely published in various locations on the web.

Not if they are under copyright. Got any examples?

Its exactly the same as emailing it to someone.

No it isn't. Email is private.

taksan, This is actually making me wonder if you are deliberately trolling these threads and purposefully wasting people's time.

[taksan]

its a free document that is published on the internet.

It is not free, however. It requires a subscription to download from the official website.
http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/page/subscribe
That may not be a huge amount of money - it probably barely covers the postage and printing...

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Mats

I didn't know you had to pay for this, every university has copies of these kind of papers on their websites.

[taksan]

taksan, This is actually making me wonder if you are deliberately trolling these threads and purposefully wasting people's time.

If I see something I don't think is right I'm going to say something about it ...regardless of what you are anyone else might think or whatever the "accepted practice" might be.
I don't run with the herd and if you have a problem with that you'd better build a bridge because nothings going to change.