Importing plecs to the U.S. (info needed)

[joefish72]

I'm currently trying to find out about importing plecs to the Florida in the U.S.
I have just started the process of dealing with customs, U.S. dept of Agriculture, Florida dept of Agriculture, and Florida Fish and wildlife.

I have asked about the import of fish on the banned list. Specificly L24 & L25 and so far I was told that as long as the country of origin "IS NOT" the country where the fish is banned from export, it is ok as an import. Also so far I was told that the other requirement would be that the fish "CAN NOT" be on the invasive species list in Florida.

I am still at the beginning of this process of getting a definitive answer and any help would be much appreciated. You know they say you can never have too much knowledge. Thanks in advance for any information you may be able to offer

[MatsP]

From previous discussion on Hypancistrus zebra, in the US, it is technically illegal to import fish (and all other living things) that are illegal to export from the country of origin.

Since L24/L25 are indeed illegal to export currently in Brazil, it is therefor illegal to import them in the US.

I'm not sure how well the officers checking imports KNOWS this, since it's clear that there are fish available in the US that SHOULDN'T be available as wild-caught fish. However, the fact that others break the law doesn't make it legal for you (or anyone else).

Further, it is clearly unethical, whether it is legal or not in the country of destination, to trade in illegal to be exported in the country of origin. A bit like saying "Well, I know this car-stereo was stolen, but since I won't get caught, I'll just sell it on e-bay". The people who trade in illegal export of fish are probably not "the good guys" in the country where the fish are caught - what else are they smuggling?

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Mats

[apistomaster]

I am guilty of buying Hypancistrus zebra since the ban was emplaced and do not feel guilty about it.
Fish like H. zebra are being doomed to extinction due to the construction of the Belo Monte hydroelectric dam.
If the country where they are found has no qualms about the extinction of fish for the sake of progress it makes me have much less respect for export bans of fish they will be driving to extinction.
It is not legal and it makes me a scofflaw but my conscience allows me to sleep at night.
This is my personal position and not an endorsement for others to to do the same.
I leave this decision up to the individual.

[joefish72]

From previous discussion on Hypancistrus zebra, in the US, it is technically illegal to import fish (and all other living things) that are illegal to export from the country of origin.

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Mats

Thank you for your reply the information you provided is exactly what I thought. U.S. law states that "it is illegal to import" if the fish is "illegal to export".
I spent a full day speaking to about 7 different U.S. & Florida State agencies as well as customs in Canada (the country which would be exporting the fish).

Please excuse my paraphrase:
Canada says, we don't care what leaves the country only about what comes in.
U.S. Dept of agriculture says, the fish is not on the invasive species list so it's ok to import.
U.S. Veterinary says the species is not a concern, so it's ok.
U.S. Customs says, the fish doesn't appear on any of the multiple lists they check so it's ok.
Florida fish and game says it's not on any of the lists they have, so it's ok.


I even stated to the customs agent that the species was "banned from export from Brazil and that would make it illegal to import" and they said they couldn't find any reason that the fish couldn't be imported from Canada unless it was in a commercial quantity which would then require both the exporter & importer to have commercial import/export licenses.

I have all the names of the people I spoke with and today got the papers from customs to fill out. My plan is to file all the paperwork with the addendum that this species is banned from export from Brazil, after that if they allow it to be imported to the U.S. from Canada I would believe that it must be ok.

I look forward to any other feedback you may have as I know nothing about the import/export topic other than the little bits I've read here.

[MatsP]

Well, you may have a good argument in court, but I certainly don't think the excuse of "I gave all the details" necessarily holds in court _IF_ they decide to take it that way.

Here's the thread detailing the applicable laws:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 7&p=186417

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Mats

[joefish72]

Thanks again for that info, the link was excellent

I honestly read all of the posts and was amazed at how strong the opinions were. Please understand that I'm not trying to start a great debate, rather become more informed about the laws and how they pertain to the hobby in the U.S. I did see that the Lacey Act was referenced and after reading the legal language I did notice the term "obtained illegally". As with just about every U.S. law, they always seem to throw in some ambiguity. As I understand those words, you would be in violation if the fish were known to be illegally harvested from Brazil. The fish I am looking at are small 2-3 inches and I would think if they are in Canada they may be tank raised (I'm not saying that is the case, just it is a possibility)

Another thing I noticed in one of the posts mentioned "F2 fish and most fish raised are still only F1". I do not know what the designation of F1 & F2 mean, I assume it has something to do with being wild or captive spawned. If you could educate me on what those terms mean, that would be great.

Either way, I obviously have more research to do so I can get an absolute answer from an agency that knows the law. I plan to call the Dept. of Agriculture again, maybe see what branch of gov't prosecutes a case like this. I would assume the prosecuting authority would know exactly how to interpret the law & how it applies.

[Suckermouth]

Another thing I noticed in one of the posts mentioned "F2 fish and most fish raised are still only F1". I do not know what the designation of F1 & F2 mean, I assume it has something to do with being wild or captive spawned. If you could educate me on what those terms mean, that would be great.

F1 means first generation captive bred fish, F2 means second generation captive bred fish.

[joefish72]

Thanks for that info suckermouth

I'm still making a lot of phone calls and it seems nobody can give me an absolute answer. I will share any info/developments as I get them.

[CanadaPleco]

Good luck, pseuda season is over, water levels are too high now.

[taksan]

Thanks for that info suckermouth

I'm still making a lot of phone calls and it seems nobody can give me an absolute answer. I will share any info/developments as I get them.

As they are being imported from Canada is doesn't matter if they are legal to export from Brazil. As far as US customs is concerned the fish are Canadian.
Its a similar situation with some Black Rays and lots of plecos. They might be illegal to export from Brazil but once they are in Columbia, Peru or any other country they are quite legal to import. Before all these crazy Brazilian bans we used to see lists out of Columbia and Peru with mainly local species now we see list with the locals PLUS all the so called banned Brazilian fish as well. And all quite legal.

[MatsP]

As explained in the link I posted, there are laws in the US that forbids import of species that is forbidden to export from the originating country - no matter which route it has taken. So whether the fish come from Brazil directly or indirectly through another country, it is definitely in legal terms NOT ALLOWED. The fact that the law is not enforced for whatever reason doesn't change the law.

This applies to the US. Other countries can indeed bypass the Brazilian law by buying the fish from another country without breaking any law. That doesn't necessarily make the ethical...

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Mats

[PlecoCrazy]

From how I understand it there is not really a banned list but rather a list of allowed fish. If its not on the list then it is banned. How is a US custom person going to know that a fish not on the allowed list from Brazil coming from Columbia is illegal? The amount of effort required to figure out what was illegal or not and where the fish's origin is from would just be crazy. We even have a hard time here on PC figuring out some. No wonder its not enforced. I think they are more concerned in looking for fish that are banned in the US that they are familiar with in looking for.

[MatsP]

Trent, that is a good explanation as to why they are not enforcing it. It still doesn't make it legal.

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Mats

[PlecoCrazy]

I wasn't try to justify it, just pointing out how impossible it is for any customs to enforce Brazil's allowed list. Now if they actually had a banned list then it would be much easier to enforce. On the flip side if Brazil had a banned list then they would have to acknowledge all the different species of fish from the Xingu (and other rivers) that they were going to wipe out. They would have to put all those L numbers on the list and recognize them as species, bringing more weight against the building of the Dams. So its really their crooked dealings with having an allowed list and not a banned list, that caused the big loophole for illegal trade in the first place, IMO. Not saying its not still illegal, just saying they brought this problem upon themselves.

[Bas Pels]

Even if Brasil would ban fishes for export, that would still not mean other countries are not allowed to export their fishes

WE know the Rio Xingu fish do not also come from Colombia or Peru. But would this be a valid argument in Court? I don't know. A statement informing the Court that L24 does not live in Colombia, so any L24 coming from Colombia must first have bene exported - illegally - to Colombia is not enough

The exporter can always claim it was bred in Colombia, from stock obtained before the ban. Bought from a breeder.

OK, most likely a lie. But verifiable? If someone would go there, the breeder will be said to be broke, and something behind bars will have to pass for a breeding facility.

Personally I think it would be better if the Latin American countries would jointly ban fishes - in order to prevent the above.

Illegal to export from Brasil? Than it's illegal to expport from Colombia, Peru et cetera too

But I know this will take a long time before it happens

[taksan]

As far as I am concerned any fish exported out of Brazil is far better off then any fish left there to be made extinct by the corrupt environmental vandals that reside in Brazil. I don't care how they get out ... I just want to see as many out as possible.

[Bas Pels]

Taksan

Although I'm very much in favor of freedom of speech, I do find your remarks highly offensive

This is an intenrational forum, where people meet from many different cultures. Still, I wonder whether your remark is acceptable in your culture

[taksan]

Taksan

Although I'm very much in favor of freedom of speech, I do find your remarks highly offensive

This is an intenrational forum, where people meet from many different cultures. Still, I wonder whether your remark is acceptable in your culture

I'm not sure if you were trying to say its a intentionally rational forum or a international one but either way I simply call things as I see them .... how you could possibly find my remarks offensive is known only to yourself. In my culture people don't muck around with politically correct BS and just cut to the chase. I don't apologize for calling a spade a spade ... as I said the fish are safer in our tanks then at the mercy of the Brazilians as far as I am concerned this is a fact.

[Bas Pels]

If I need to explain myself:

Your fish was smuggeld by criminals before it came to Colombia.

There nice guys not only smuggle more than just fish, weapons, booze, drugs, they also have a habit of being territorial, and not mind scatter damage

They don't however like witnesses, and have a tendency of killing them

I think it is highly offensive to support this kind of gentlemen with excuse like 'I'm helping saving the last endangered Rio xingu fishes'. No, you just want to have them in your tank, perhaps even to brag about the expenses, and you don't care about the effects in Brasil

Brasil is wrong with how it handles the Rio Xingu. That is right, and I will not even try to defend Brasil. But the effects of smuggling fishes are so dramatic, that I think it is highly offensive to even consider having them

on a sidenote, I meant 'international' although intentionally rational is a good find. And please be rational about the effects of your doings

[taksan]

Of course I want them in my tanks at least there they are safe from the dams and the long lines and nets and from being sold for 5C as a "snack" and your right I don't care about Brazil one little bit.They obviously don't care about their own country so why should I? As far as I am concerned they lost my consideration as soon as the Bel Monte dam was corruptly approved ! I'd rather support smugglers even murdering smugglers then the corrupt hypocritical mass murdering Brazilian government....If you find that offensive I'm afraid that's your issue.

[joefish72]

OK, lets everyone keep the "personal opinions" out of this. As stated before I don't want a debate as to the "ethical or moral" I am looking for information about the "legal". What you do, did, or want to do is irrelevant to the issue of is it legal. I am looking to import a few fish from Canada into the U.S. and want to be sure it is "LEGAL" to do this.

As stated above I have spoken to several agencies and it seems none of them can find a reason that it is illegal to import L25 from Canada into the U.S. I'm currently trying to find an agency that will "put it in writing". What I am finding is a lot of finger pointing as in oh you need to call ABC, then ABC says oh you need to call GHI, then GHI says oh you need to call XYZ, and then XYZ says ABC handles that so call them.

I plan to get something in writing before going forward with this since that would be my only legal defense if an issue should arise from this. I know better than to just take the word of some stranger I spoke to on the phone, even if they work at customs. Once I have an absolute answer I will let you all know what it is.

In addition if anyone has any experience in this matter, I am open to any info/suggestions you may be able to offer.

[apistomaster]

Of course I want them in my tanks at least there they are safe from the dams and the long lines and nets and from being sold for 5C as a "snack" and your right I don't care about Brazil one little bit.They obviously don't care about their own country so why should I? As far as I am concerned they lost my consideration as soon as the Bel Monte dam was corruptly approved ! I'd rather support smugglers even murdering smugglers then the corrupt hypocritical mass murdering Brazilian government....If you find that offensive I'm afraid that's your issue.

I pretty much agree with you taksan except for the "murdering smugglers" but it is a fact that as long as a desired commodity is illegal, and there are many such things, there will be smugglers. Many will be violent at least on an ad hoc basis.
Many do not care what they are transporting as they are smugglers who can not afford to be choosy about what or not they will transport. Prohibition always creates these underground illegal operatives and organizations. The more draconian the sanctions the more dangerous the types of individuals in the business become. No one wants to change this. Certainly not the police/industrial complex.

South America is not a continent of friendly neighbors. All SA countries maintain militaries that exceed the need as perceived by outsiders but Chavez in Venezuela supports the FARC narco/terrorist/revolutionaries in Colombia and he has threatened to go to war with Colombia several times.
Chavez will not allow Venezuelan fish to be exported to any country which has joined in sanctions against it although it will sell the USA petroleum.
Petroleum is increasingly a source of political problems and wars in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.
Peru has it's own internal problems with the leftist Shining path rebels. Brazil is becoming a significant world power and is in the market for F-18 Super Hornets or the best deal for an equivalent generation 4+ fighter jets to counter the The Chinese K-8 trainer/fighters. Venezuela and Bolivia are buying the Chinese K-8 as well. All say they need them to fight the drug trade. If anyone believes that then they can believe that lots of Hypancistrus zebra are being bred in Peru for the OTF trade. OTF=Ornamental Fish Trade.
Other than Brazil, the majority of OTF exporting SA countries are not very concerned about the OTF trade. Brazil's motives are difficult to divine as some of what they do seems to be science based decisions about preserving certain species but just as many seem designed to distract from the environmental effects their various hydroelectric projects will have and fish keepers help draw too much unwanted attention to the species that Brazilian progress will drive to extinction. Nothing is what or as simple as it seems.

BTW, F1, F2... is short for Filial generation subsequent to the breeding of originally wild fish or the products of breeding two unrelated lines of fish. The term is used more broadly than simply fish breeding progeny. Could be a wild rat X Lab white rat etc. http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/F-1_generation

[joefish72]

OK, I got the answer from the prosecuting authority which is U.S. Fish & Wildlife. "The fish is not on the cities(<--spelling) list and it's not on the endangered list so it's ok to import it from Canada. They also refused to give it to me in writing. I spoke to customs again and they said as long as all my paperwork is filled out and filed properly the fish will be cleared.

[apistomaster]

You have exercised all due diligence.
That is usually pretty good footing should some authority attempt to screw with your shipments.