Jews and Catfish

[bamboosticks]

I was reading the book of Leviticus and got to chapter 11;

9 " 'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to detest. 11 And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you.

I remembered that catfish don't have scales, so are they to be detestable to Jews? Would Jewish people be allowed to keep them? After all, if they died, to stop a nitrate/ammonium spike, the carcasses, which are detestable, would have to be removed from the tank; would using nets be enough? I'm also curious as to how Loricariidae and Callichthyidae are to be treated: how would Mosaic law deal with their armour plates? Would they be treated as scales? I'm not sure...

Wondering if there are any practicing Jews on PlanetCatfish, and what their views are.

[MatsP]

I'm not a practicing Jew (or a Jew in any other aspect), but we have had members from Israel, which I presume are likely to be Jews, and they were keeping catfish. As to whether under-the-skin bony scutes are classed as scales [scientifically they are NOT], I can't answer at all. Bear in mind that there are, to my knowledge, no bony-scuted catfish in the old world, and being written a long while before Christopher Columbus travelled West across the Atlantic, I guess they didn't know much about that.

A lot of the rules from this age makes a lot of sense if you live in a country with no refrigeration and very warm country. It makes less sense when we now have refrigeration, and/or when living in a cooler climate.

--
Mats

[bamboosticks]

Of course - I in a silly way didn't really think about the dietary considerations at the time. It's just that words such as 'detestable' were used, so I didn't really think about that.

[Sfamnun]

I used to live in Israel and have recently migrated to Sweden. I am a Jewish atheist catfish enthusiast.
I am quite ignorant on Jewish religious laws, so you will have to forgive me! Maybe someone who actually is religious could comment and explain about how it works for them.

Indeed, religious Jews are not allowed to eat catfish. As for the various armoured catfish - I have no idea.

As for keeping them - I am not sure! I suppose it would depend on how religious one is. Dogs are unkosher animals, for example, but you would still find them in many Jewish homes!
On the other hand, I saw a TV programme with some very religious Jews who, at the time, were buying some things for their new baby. They avoided things that had childish drawings of horses on them, because horses are unclean! I have never previously heard of someone being so strict, however.

Once, in a pet store in Israel, I saw a religious Jew coming in with his child to buy some fish. He also bought some fish food. This was during passover, which has special dietary restrictions- you are not allowed to eat leavened bread and as an extension many other things (pretzels etc.). He asked the sales person if the fish food was kosher for passover. I don't think the salesperson knew! Anyway, dog food IS available in kosher for passover versions around passover - despite the fact that dogs themselves are unkosher. It is not as illogical as it sounds as the religious laws say that on passover you are not allowed to have such food in your home.


Okay, now I have been trying to google for more information on uncleanliness and how it works. My thinking was that maybe after you touch an "unclean" carcass and become "unclean" that perhaps you can... clean yourself? Somehow? Atone? In the little time I put into it I did not find anything specific about fish other than how to tell if a fish is kosher or not...

AHA! Now I found something!

Here is a link to someone asking about the kosherness of keeping unclean ornamental fish: http://www.halachayomit.co.il/DisplayRe ... readID=349

I will translate the question and the parts of the answer that are the most relevant. I would rather not use the "quote" code and all as it is going to be a translation, and possibly a bad one at that ;).

"Question: Is it allowed to keep at home unclean animals, such as unclean ornamental fish or hares (Sfamnun: I assume they mean rabbits) and parrots and so on, or is it not allowed according to the halacha?"

Well, the gist of it was that it is allowed to sell unclean animals (such as horses or donkeys) as long as they are not meant to be eaten.
Speaking of donkeys, the messiah himself is supposed to ride on one, as Jesus has done! That would show to me that animals which are unclean for eating do have their place even around people who are supposed to be the cleanest possible.

"And so it is for fish, that the most of which are intended for eating, it is not allowed to trade them, and therefore it is forbidden to keep such fish at home even if you are keeping them for ornamental purposes. But really, most of the kinds of fish sold for ornamental purposes are not habitually eaten and therefore it would appear that it is allowed to keep them. And it was also written by <some people, I don't know who.> about birds who speak (speaking parrot) and other ornamental birds, that are not at all habitually eaten, that it is allowed to trade them and raise them and there is no prohibition on this at all."

As an example of an unkosher fish that is used more for eating than for ornamental purposes they mentioned the eel.
Furthermore they are saying that anyone keeping animals at home should beware to not cause them any agony/sadness.
It is also mentioned that furs are allowed to be traded and worn- even if they are from unclean animals. I have always wondered about this as the most religious Jews sometimes have big fur hats made from unclean animals.

Well, this post ended up being much longer than I thought possible!

I still haven't found an answer to how proper it is to touch an unclean pet's carcass but perhaps it is allowed since you are not allowed to cause animals suffering and if you were to let a fish rot in the aquarium it would cause the others suffering? I suppose a net would be a good loophole though.

As for how logical such laws are - I don't know how logical they were even back in the day they were written. Much of it I am sure is not just about health but also for social reasons. My favourite little bit of logic though is the kosherness of the locusts - the only kosher insects! My personal idea of how it came about is as follows:

Farmer: I'm hungry.
Leader: Eat some grain from your field, then!
Farmer: I can't, it has all been replaced by these delicious and yet illegal sky shrimps.
Leader: Hmmmm..!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanx a bunch, Sfamnun! Good work. Lots of suppositions but still edifying and interesting read! Really looking forward to hear from an orhthodox Jew who keeps catfish.

[Sfamnun]

I forgot to mention that every now and then when people who don't keep fish have heard that I have catfish, they have been surprised and asked "But aren't they unkosher?!" - comparing catfish to dogs has been my usual answer. ;)
But who knows, maybe they thought I was just fattening them up!

This was probably because I always use the Hebrew name "Sfamnun" (moustache fish) when I say catfish, which is usually used in a more scientific context or when discussing the local species (

Clarias gariepinus

). In the aquarium hobby, at least back in the day, a catfish would be called "Dag chatul" which is a literal translation of "cat fish".

[sidguppy]

interesting discussion!

btw since we're talking about Jews; sept 17/18 it was Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement
that's a fairly important day of the year for those of Jewish faith ;)

another question; since the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith have quite an overlap in many rules would the catfish be off limits for Muslims as well?

many things that are kosher (allowed) are halal (same for islam) as well; and I think it's the same vice versa; what is unkosher or haram .

years ago I heard how the concept of setting up catfish farms in Africa (Clarias farms) to battle the famine was scuttled because of this taboo, but it might be just that; a rumour.

anyone have some insight in this?

[MatsP]

I believe catfish are not allowed in Muslim food-rules as well - this was stated in some paper I was reading about breeding fish for food in Africa, and it said something like "Catfish such as Clarias gariepinnus may not be acceptable in muslim communities".

--
Mats

[corybreed]

In order for fish to be considered Kosher they must have scales. We are only talking about dietary laws here. Keeping catfish in the aquarium is a non issue. I am not an expert an ancient dietary laws but I assume that catfish and shellfish were considered dirty. At the time I am sure this was the case.

Mark

[Richard B]

What a really interesting thread, nice one

[bronzefry]

In order for fish to be considered Kosher they must have scales. We are only talking about dietary laws here. Keeping catfish in the aquarium is a non issue. I am not an expert an ancient dietary laws but I assume that catfish and shellfish were considered dirty. At the time I am sure this was the case.

Mark

Yep! The laws of keeping Kosher get much more convoluted, if you care to learn them. But, these are the basics. It only applies to your diet, not your hobbies.
Amanda