pleco newbie with unexpected fry

[marlin]

I have a pair of Albino LF BN plecos, approx 1 year old housed in a 29g tank with 2 Siamese ( not Chinese) algae eaters. I just discovered fry in a cave that I provided for them to hide in, I had no idea they were spawning.
The tank is fully cycled 0 ammonia 0 nitrites 5 nitrates 7.2 ph temp 74 and has lots of aeration, driftwood, etc with a thin layer of natural gravel on the bottom. It is normally used as a spare tank, I keep it cycled in case I have to move one of my fancy goldies out of bigger tanks. No goldies in there now.
Dad has been spending a lot of time in and out of the cave the last week or 2 so I shined a flashlight in last night and the roof is full of wiggly fry with the yolk sack still attached. I have no idea when eggs were laid. I never saw her in the cave. One baby is out and on the glass a long way from the cave.
. There are also some MTSnails in there to aerate the gravel.
I have an Emperor 400 filter on the tank, do I need to put filter floss over the intake to protect the fry??
Should I try and remove the algae eaters ? They are about 2-3" long.
Anything I can do for the straggler on the glass ( will attach picture)?
Anything else I need to do? I feel completely unprepared but have enough room to grow out the fry if they make it.
Any and all input welcomed !

[MatsP]

I don't know what you need/should do with the siamese algae eaters, but I find that it always works best to NOT move the fry, unless theya are defeinitely in danger.

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Mats

[marlin]

I got one algae eater out but they are so fast and hard to catch, I didn't want to traumatize daddy pleco so I didn't go after the other. Now that the tank light is on, he is out of the cave and under a bubbler nearby....I hope I didn't mess things up, this was so much less stressful before I knew he had babies in there !

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Is your siamese algae eater = black line flying fox?

Mine never troubled any BN fry, even when they were agressive and killing one another (the siamese algae eaters that is)

[marlin]

Yes, they are SAE's, which I think is a bit different from a flying fox, there are some pictures here, there are several that are very much alike !
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=132241
Thanks for that information on the babies. These SAEs are exactly as you describe, they are very careful around my goldies and plecos but squabble incessantly among themselves !
Is there anything else I need to be doing? Is the temp ok, there is no heater in there. Also, if they still had yolk sacks yesterday, any idea when they'll come out of the cave?
Is there any difference in how easy the long fin BN are to breed and raise compared to the short fins\ BN?
Thanks so much for your reply !

[MatsP]

Apparently, long fins are a little bit more fragile, but I don't think other thank keeping a good eye on the water quality, that there is much that should make a difference.

--
Mats

[sturiosoma]

I would cover filter intake, temperature should be ok if they are developing good which they seem to be doing other than that things seem to be doing fine, and congratulations.

[MatsP]

If the filter is VERY powerful, then yes, cover it up. But I have had mine in tanks with internal and external power-filters and never noticed any great losses - I sometimes see fry in the filters, but they seem to get out again.

[This is the normal finned ones, not sure if long-fins are noticably more clumsy - the normal finned ones are definitely quite capable of "coping with a lot of flow"].

--
Mats

[marlin]

Thank you guys for your replies.
This Emperor moves about 400gph so that's good to know that they can handle the water movement and intake.
It's been 48 hours since I first saw them in the cave and Dad is still not letting them out. I got the SAE's out so the plecos are the only ones in the tank. I thought I read that they stay in the cave 24-48 hours after hatching, is that right?
I guess he will let them out when he's ready and I'll try to make sure there's some zucchini or cucumber in there when they come out.

[MatsP]

Depending on temperature and possibly also "threats" in the tank, the dad will keep the fry in the cave for about 7-10 days from the eggs being laid.

--
Mats

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Marlin,
Longfins seem more adept at getting into crazy narrow places, than the normals, and do appear a bit less tollerant of dramatic shifts in parameters. Keeping an eye on your measurements should do the trick though.
I'm not sure I can add any more value.
Cheers
Geoff

[marlin]

It's been at least 4 days since the babies hatched in the cave ( I first found them on Saturday so it could be a little longer and I'm guessing the eggs were laid about 7 days before that?) and dad is still spending the majority of his time in the cave with them.
Should I be concerned? I can see that the babies are wiggling and appear ok, just wondering when they need to come out and eat...

[andywoolloo]

dad knows when, and each new batch they have they get better at it. He will learn visiably before your eyes. It's amazing.

I have only bred them in a species only tank tho. and i only but the babies/eggs in a net breeder once when the males were rookies and accidentally kicked them out. other than that I left them with the dads. Covered the intake, make sure it's something that can allow flow thru, remember to checked any HOBS and canisters for fry before you dump the fry out with the bath water so to speak.

Apistomaster gave me the best intake covering advice. He uses the following, correct me if I am wrong Larry:

the appropriate size this:

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... atid=13961

filled with some of this

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... catid=4321

i attach it with a rubberband. it works fantastic. I always got the medium sized meshed bags but unknown what size you'd need. They love it too all the BN adult and fry cause they suck on the bag to get the infusoria(?) that build s up in the Eheim Ehfifix. once a week i turned off the canister and took it off and rinsed it under the taps and the put it back on.

It was the only thing that didn't impact the flow or rather suction in of the filter for me.

If I remember right dads kept their first babies in cave long time. i was stressed out also.

Are you ready with food for the fry? and you can still put out food for dad at night, they scramble away to eat at night and then jam back to the caves, dads.

I do NLS grow (learned here from mods Birger, Richard, maybe? Mats? i m sorry) for the fry and fruit and veg and i always fed their tank protein twice a a week. The babies munched on everything the parents did also, anything they could.

Feed the babies continually and continually clean the excess out. good luck.

[marlin]

Thank you for the reply. Right now I have the intake wrapped in a piece of filter floss held on with a rubber band because it was all I could think of
but that idea looks great.
I removed the SAEs so there is only the pair of plecos in the 29g tank now. I have been putting zucchini in and they normally get algae wafers every couple of days. Do I need to feed the fry something different? I also have some Omega one shrimp pellets that my goldies like, that I can feed. I will look up the NLS grow, is it fed daily to the fry?
Do the mom's usually hang out around the caves? This one is not all over the tank like she normally is, she's mostly staying right around the cave area...
Thanks so much for answering all the questions and helping me learn about these guys!

[andywoolloo]

as long as the babies have egg sacks they do not need to be fed. once they absorb that they need to eat . Yes the NLS Grow is a small baby food. yes they can graze on everything the regular adults eat, but NLS grown is a fry or small fish food, sinking granule. I have seen it for sale at privately owned fish stores or you can order it from Kens.

sometimes my females hung out around the caves but mostly when thry were ready to do more eggs, also other males will hang around the cave of a dad with fry. cause they are nosy or want to fan too or god only knows what.

I added zuchinni,cucumber, bell pepper strips, no seeds, every day, adding fresh ones often and removing eaten ones. my babies ate them all raw, sucked on them and rasps. Oh! also romaine lettuce leaves on a veggie clip! they devoured that!! only the stem left!! they eat like beasts! and all the food and waste clog up your filters, so you have to do more maintanence when you see the filters getting clogged or the flow reduced. and up your water changes.

how many eggs do you have? or fry?

also I am a relative newbie, just a few years experience for me with BN and their fry. sold 100s to the fish store. they bred me crazy! lol Much more advanced skilled people on here who I learned all this from.

good luck!!

p.s. mine also loved mango, but watch that and only feed when youre home so you can take it out when they are done

p.p.s http://www.kensfish.com/newlifespectrum.html

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Marlin,
I have a batch of longfin that hatched on Wednesday morning, so I can "ride along with you" if you like........
In 7-10 days I expect them to have consumed their yolk sack.

If I was going to put them into another tank I would remove the cave at this point and gently shake them into the other tank. The other tank must be an established tank so there is "stuff" for them to eat on the glass.

These ones I intend leaving in the tank with the parents.
After they have consumed their yolk sack they will start feeding on the microscopic stuff inside the cave. After another 3-5 days I would have expected them to have made their way out of the cave in search of food.
About when they have consumed their yolk sack I would start crushing the same food I feed the parents, so crushed algae wafers, and add this to the food for the parents, I would start with 1 extra wafer only.

As to covering the filter intake, the ehfifix stuff is pretty expensive here so I just use a coarse sponge filter foam about 2x the thickness of the intake pipe, and cut a slit and then insert the intake pipe into the sponge. It needs cleaning once a week or so, but I think it will clog less than the filter wool.

Cheers

[marlin]

Thank you for the great information! I don't know anyone who breeds these guys and only 1 person that even has them, so I really appreciate the input.
I don't know how many babies there are, yet, they are clustered at the top of the cave and it's not positioned where I can count easily without moving it and disturbing them...I don't think it's a huge number...maybe 25+ ? Hard to tell
2 are out now and look fine, very busy on the glass, but that's about it.
Dad likes to hang out now with his body on the outside and only his chin on the inside on the ledge at the opening...maybe it's getting crowded, who knows !!
Thanks again.

[MatsP]

I just delivered 4 meters of Eheim 16/22mm hose worth of Ancistrus to the LFS - about 10 adults and a dozen juveniles - a fair trade in my opinion.

--
Mats

[andywoolloo]

right,and as long as I was doing it I had free fish food free tank supplies. decorations, other fish, etc.

but still hard work to have them breeding continually! maybe if i had only had one male one female might have been different. I had 2 males 3 females i think, adults, breeding, all of them. just regular fin tho now Long fin.

good luck! have fun.

[marlin]

I would definitely be happy to trade them for store credit, we have all big chain stores here who I'm sure have a policy against it, and only one or two small locally owned stores that could take them.
This mornig they were all over the glass ! I think about 40 or so.. I haven't seen any on the zucchini or romaine I put out last night, does it take a few days before they come off the glass to eat things from the bottom?
It's fun to watch the tummies slowly fill with algae !!
Mom and Dad are not cleaning right now ?? so there is plenty for them to eat..
1cm 6 day old baby longfin BN pleco...

[cichlidman16yearsold]

that is so cool

[MatsP]

Lightly cooked courgette is the food for the young ones. Looks good.

--
Mats

[marlin]

2 week update : fry are doing great and eating zucchini ( our version of courgette =) .
I had an attack of plant fungus at one week. Too much zucchini that they weren't eating yet, parents not cleaning and I had taken the Siamese algae eaters out right after they hatched. I tossed the plants, scrubbed the decorations, vacuumed gravel and put the SAE's back in. Problem solved, they love any kind of stringy vegetation and pay no interest in the babies.
I have no idea how many are there, at least 20 as that is how many I've been able to count at one time so for now they are staying in the 29 with mom and dad.
Thanks so much for all the great advice !!

[marlin]

Update - the babies are growing like crazy and are about 1 month old. Culled a couple for bent spines but haven't lost any others that I've noticed.
I noticed dad in the cave last weekend but never saw mom go in. I checked with a flashlight and found cave full of new wigglers...Holy Cow, is this normal, every 30 days? I'm thinking the "Love Shack"/ cave may need to come out for a bit after this, LOL!

I do have a genetics question, both parens are LF but about 20% of the babies have significantly shorter fins than the others. Does this mean 1 parent has a SF parent? Or do some just take longer to grow?

[MatsP]

It is absolutely normal to have new broods every four-five weeks, yes.

Taking the cave out may not work, as the male will likely find somewhere else...

Separating the male from the female may be an option. Taking the female out is likely easier, as you don't have to wait for the male to finish guarding a brood.

Can't say about the long/short fin ratio, as I've never kept long-fin Ancistrus.

--
Mats

[marlin]

Thanks, Mats!

Is it possible to keep the 2 fry groups together for a bit? Or will the 1 month old ones pick on the new ones? Does anyone successfully keep multiple spawns together for a month or so?

[MatsP]

Should be fine, as long as there is enough food and the water quality is good. Frequent, large water changes is required to keep that going.

--
Mats

[krazyGeoff]

Thanks, Mats!

Is it possible to keep the 2 fry groups together for a bit? Or will the 1 month old ones pick on the new ones? Does anyone successfully keep multiple spawns together for a month or so?

Hi Marlin,
I have my batch (same ones mentioned previously) in with the parents and a previous batch at the moment, in a standard 2 foot tank.
I'll be moving them this weekend as the food requirements are now just starting to cause me water quality issues, if that helps.

Geoff