Breeding Synodontis eupterus?

[tokyo]

Is it possible to breed Synodontis eupterus?

I can't imagine that all eupterus being sold are wild caught. But I can't find any information on them breeding or even mention of them breeding in captivity.

I have an opportunity to buy a juvenile colony pretty cheap and was thinking about possibly breeding them if its possible.

I think I will get them either way, because they are great looking cats!

[andywoolloo]

they get to be a big chunky size and too have enough of them to possibly mate naturally i think would be tough. I have 5 in a 75 gal for 3 yrs now, nothing much going on in that area that I can tell.

there was a guy who had a huge colony and said he had bred them in captivity, I can't remember his screen name. I 'll search for it. Tonga? Toga?

Maybe i think mostly they are strip bred. Horrible. or inject them with hormones.

They are just so big tho, i can recommend lucipinnis. Lovely little small guys.

here was someone trying

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=27808

[tokyo]

Thanks

How do you know when they are sexually mature? How long does it take to reach this point from 1" fish?

[DJRansome]

If you look in the Cat-E-Log you will see "Breeding: Unknown".

If you want to breed cats to go along with the Malawi and Tangs you are setting up, you might be better off with Synodontis Multipunctatus, Petricola or Lucipinnis. All these have been bred in captivity and you will find information about how to do it. IMO they are also more attractive to African cichlid keepers because they are from the Rift lakes and are more visible and active in the tank than euptera.

From my experience, my Lucipinnis just started breeding last year, I bought one inch juvies in 2005. My Multipunctatus just started breeding last year, they are at least seven years old.

From my reading I would say three years old is about the right starting age.

[MatsP]

I've never heard of anyone breeding these under regular aquarium conditions. I think they are being bred in Asia or Eastern Europe using hormones.

As for many species [particularly those that grow a bit larger], it's quite likely a combination of:
1. Not many people keep more than one fish.
2. The conditions to trigger breeding are not known.

--
Mats

[TP]

Here's a description of a spawning and it appears the raising of that spawn and others.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ng#p119681

Andywooloo was correct with the (Sara) toga part!!

[andywoolloo]

wow TP thanks for finding that, yeah and they use a part of that name on other forums, more the toga. with more posts and pictures. but of course I cannot locate them.

but good job on that link, it was driving me mental.

[andywoolloo]

Aussi Aussi AUssi Oi Oi Oi

it was user name togajoe but i think maybe formally saratoga!!

k still searching

[tokyo]

Thanks for all the info. I didn't even realize people had responded, I was expecting an e-mail notification.

I was mostly just curious about if it would be a possibility for me to breed them in the future. I don't think I would be willing to dedicate the tank space needed to actually breed them(if it can even be done) though.

If you look in the Cat-E-Log you will see "Breeding: Unknown".

If you want to breed cats to go along with the Malawi and Tangs you are setting up, you might be better off with Synodontis Multipunctatus, Petricola or Lucipinnis. All these have been bred in captivity and you will find information about how to do it. IMO they are also more attractive to African c*****d keepers because they are from the Rift lakes and are more visible and active in the tank than euptera.

From my experience, my Lucipinnis just started breeding last year, I bought one inch juvies in 2005. My Multipunctatus just started breeding last year, they are at least seven years old.

From my reading I would say three years old is about the right starting age.

I was actually going to stock them in a seperate planted tank I was planning, but I decided to scrap the plans and use the tank for more breeding space for the tanganyikans.

I have actually just resold all of the euptera for a small profit, split between a couple buyers.

I do plan on setting up a breeding tank for my W/C Syno multies eventually, but that won't be for a quite a while.

I may also try some petricola, but I'll probably stick with my cichlids for now, atleast until everyting is up and running smoothly.

[qwerty]

0

[MatsP]

I have read here many times sentences how bloody Easteren European aquarists are unhuman using hormons for fish reproduction. But it seems to me that some aquarists in overseas are a bit lazy to try something new.

<sarcasm>Whether you are human or not, I can't say [unless you are a robot, you probably are].</sarcasm>

It _IS_, in my opinion, inhumane to use hormone injections to breed fish. To NOT breed with hormones is not lazy, it is the natural method. I can see the purpose of using hormones for food production, but if the purpose of breeding the fish is a hobby project, for personal satisfaction, then using hormones is not the right way to go - it's about as satisfying as turning the cards over when playing solitaire [the card game that comes with many computers] and moving them around to solve the puzzle.

Breeding the natural way involves understanding what the fish needs - and sometimes that can be a complex set of circumstances involving changes in one or more of these:
temperature
pH
conductivity
food (availability/types)
water level
moonlight
day/night-length [unlikely in tropical fish]

Some species may also be affected by hormones in the water from other fish spawning, but I don't think that's really as common as people say it is - it is more likely that if the circumstances for spawning one species is right, another species spawning at the same time may simply be that it's right for that species as well.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

Some species may also be affected by hormones in the water from other fish spawning, but I don't think that's really as common as people say it is

personally, without any research done, I would assume only the true pisciforous fishes - where hatching fry will need other fry to predate upon might need other fishes hormones

For other fish it would, after all, be stupit to wait untill the competition has arrived - and evolution normally takes care of stupid solutions

Back to S eupterus - it has a large distribution, and in all those rivers it manages to do without human intervention. Whatever is the trick, the trick should be fairly simple

[qwerty]

0

[qwerty]

0

[Birger]

There is no any documented report of so called natural method of riverin synodontis reproduction.

This is not true...

Synodontis schoutedeni

,

Synodontis nigrita

,

Synodontis euptera

are three I can quickly think of that have been done.
The amount of tank space needed may be one of the biggest problems in having natural spawns from riverine species.
Not everyone wants to dedicate up to three good size tanks to spawn one species.

Birger

[Mod edit: Fix "spilleng mitsake" in species name (and use Ferrari's style -a instead of -us) --Mats]

[Birger]

[Mod edit: Fix "spilleng mitsake" in species name (and use Ferrari's style -a instead of -us) --Mats]

Good catch, old habits and early morning LOL

[qwerty]

0

[sidguppy]

What do you mean by natural method? Glass tank with electric filter, light tubes,... fish fed by flakes containing tens of chemical additives, various conditioners and other chemicals in water? Is this natural?

if you cannot spot the difference between keeping a fish in proper water etc or sticking a needle in it and squeezing it to death to get the eggs or roe out; I strongly suggest you do a bit of research.

and because I'm not averse to teaching, I give you the link right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

there are things you just don't do.

if you cannot understand that, if you are so blind that deliberately maiming and killing fish for profit is the same as our hobby, you suffer from a disorder called sociopthy.
it is known also as a total lack of empathy.

then not study, but professional help from a psychiatist is in order. really!

i can remember a while ago a guy from Russia who like you was all into sticking needles in Syno's.
he also made hybrids, because breeding them as species was "boring" to him.

you people amaze me.
NO ethics, NO morale, NO respect for nature or animals, nothing.
just pure undeluted greed.
disgusting, really.

[Scleropages]

you people amaze me.
NO ethics, NO morale, NO respect for nature or animals, nothing.
just pure undeluted greed.
disgusting, really.

Sid, I don't agree with artificially breeding fish--especially to make hybrids--any more than you do. However, why stir up shit when someone is just ignorant? There are more effective ways to educate.

Get off your high horse. This is a catfish forum. Save the ethics and morals lessons for the appropriate place. Who the hell are you, God? Allah? Buddha? Vishnu? Hmmm...

[MatsP]

However, why stir up shit when someone is just ignorant? There are more effective ways to educate.

Then perhaps you should also try to keep to that principle, as I can't really see how your post will have any positive effect on the entire discussion. And I deleted the next post, as it contributes even less to a meaningful discussion.

--
Mats

[Scleropages]

Mats, the reason why I posted what I did is because Sid's post was way over the line for a forum about catfish. Spare us the morality and value judgements. I don't come to this forum to read that type of drivel. If you really felt the need to remove my next post, I'm disappointed, but I can understand. However, why not just remove or edit Sid's post?

Sid, if you want to take this up with me, shoot me a PM. I just think you are not being very tactful, to say the least. This is not the first time you've responded to other peoples' posts this way.

And, for the record, I did not stir the shit up. Sid did. I reacted to it in defense of anyone here who doesn't want to see that type of garbage. I am trying to do a nice, friendly water change and make the tank look great again. Sometimes you need to shake up the rocks, driftwood, and other decor, but you know it is in the best interest in all of the tankmates.

[MatsP]

If you want to throw words (or rocks) at each other feel free to do so in PM. Two last, completely meaningless for the overall subject, has been deleted, and any more of this and it's "warnings time".

I appreciate that you THINK you are doing the right thing, both of you. Alex (Sidguppy) may not express things the way you want it, Scleropages, but that doesn't give you the right to start a flame-war - which is exactly what you I see your actions trying to achieve (even if that wasn't what you meant to do). I know it's sometimes difficult to express in text what you are thinking and that would easily be understood when you talk person to person.

So, BOTH of you, please knock it off (in public at least).

--
Mats

[Scleropages]

Thanks, Mats. The funny thing is I agree with what Sid (Alex) is saying regarding this topic. I just don't agree with the way he attacks people when their views are different than his. It is uncalled for.

With regards to the topic: I wonder if qwerty has actually seen or performed hormone & sperm injections on fish. Have you, qwerty? Or, are you speaking from heresay? I mean, they do it all the time in fish farms. People gotta eat. Supply has to meet demand.

However, I can't help think and feel that it is cruel to inject fish with anything... except for medication, if needed. Creating artificial hybrids goes against the very thing that draws many of us to this hobby: NATURE

One more thing: how many of you own clown loaches? Were they wild caught? If not, how do you think they came into this world?

Alex, Vonnegut is a genius, BTW.

[Bas Pels]

Sclerophagus

I do agree Sidguppy was harsh in what he wrote, too harsh in my eyes, but reading what you wrote today I'm very surprised

you wrote

This is a catfish forum. Save the ethics and morals lessons for the appropriate place

Although we might feel differtent about hormone treatments (but reading further I don't think so) but I do think all forums related to keeping animals, especially animals coming from the wild, of which not always a lot is known, should pay attention to ethics and morals. Some things are just wrong, period.

please tell me your quoted reaction was overdone, so we can go back to the morals, and fishes, themselves

[sidguppy]

harsh or no, what I see is this:

Querty confesses and propagates the deliberate torture and wounding of fishes.
Scleropaghus doesn't give a peep, nothing.
nowhere to be found.

I blister some bark of said person who is practicing what is nothing less than terrorism-to-animals and only NOW does Sclerophagus jump in because he obviously has NO problem with cruelty to animals or the promnotion thereof, but he HAS a problem with ethics?

then yes, I should box his ears!
last I say of this, it's literally pearls for the swine; that much is clear.

[andywoolloo]

I agree with Sid and i like how he said it.

No offence to Scleropages.

And i agree with Bas, what better place to talk about fish treatment then on a fish forum.

Sorry, felt like I had to put my two cents cause I love the synodontis'.

[Birger]

Birger, could you give citations or links to these documented reports?

synodontis euptera....http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ng#p119681

Synodontis nigrita and shoutedeni...talk to Oliver at http://www.synodontis.net/ his spawnings are in article form but in German.

Synodontis shoutedeni, this has been spawned a few times, here is one from Shane's World...http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... choutedeni

There are more I just do not have much time right now.

Birger

[Birger]

I will repeat

So, BOTH of you, please knock it off (in public at least).

Scleropages that last post which was again deleted was not all that useful. Please stick to topic or close to it and use another option for such a communication.

Birger

[Scleropages]

I visited my friend's facility yesterday (and left with $15 less than I arrived with due to some nice Praecox rainbowfish, a bunch of fancy guppies, and some pearl danios--he hooked me up at their cost, probably) and I was speaking with him about my upcoming attempt to breed my S. angelica (one of the reasons I got the guppies -- pheromones). Eventually, we talked about injecting hormones to induce spawning. I mentioned this thread to him and some of the responses here to the use of injectable hormones. He just laughed and said that, in this hobby, if a fish wasn't wild caught, it was most likely bred using hormones.

His company owns or he's been to fish farms and facilities in Florida, S.A., Vietnam, Singapore, and others. I'm trying to get him to go to the Congo and open up a facility there so I can get more S. angelica at a good price. Ha!

Anyway, he said that, at the fish farms, you will find two things:
1. Lots of ponds (duh!)
2. A facility packed with scientists whose only job is to inject fish with hormones and medications.

Supplying fish for the hobby is a business. The owners of these farms and facilities want to get the most bang for their buck. That's why this is done. So, if you've ever bought a fish that was not wild caught (or bred in your friend's tank), more likely than not, it was not "naturally" spawned. It all comes down to brass taxes, in the end.

[DJRansome]

That's why I like fish that I can spawn myself, like cichlids, multipunctatus and lucipinnis. I would hope the breeders are able to avoid spending money on hormones and injections when the fish are willing to cooperate.

But although the idea of injections (aside from what is being injected) is offputting, I might be able to reconcile to that. After all we inject our children to prevent disease.

The horrible part with eupterus and some other catfish is that the female fish dies pretty much every time. I look forward to Sid's posts as he is very knowledgeable and usually I find his "to-the-point" posts refreshing. I'm also glad they are not directed at me.