The keys to heaven, so I'm told...

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 05 Sep 2003, 12:21

Hi everyone,

I've bullshitted my way into a consulantcy on a community pond project. (hey, it's voluntary and no one else is volunteering...).

I've not seen the pond yet but I'm told it is "big enough", shaped like a stylised fish and "about two foot deep, maybe".

It is in the middle of Brixton, London, UK.

First off, I have been specifically asked to find out what type of tree would be good to grow near the pond (ie. plentry of shade but no invasive roots). If anyone has any pointers I would be most grateful.

Also there are a few "problems". We have at least two huge terrapins living there. They have probably been there since the end of the Teenage Ninja Mutant Hero Turtle craze at the end of the 80s. I should imagine they would eat anything that came within snapping distance.

We've got a budget of close to Â£20,000 and half of that is earmarked for dredging and fitting a new pump. The rest will go on stocking the park and the pond. The sludge is probably full of used hypodermic syringes, firearms and empty wallets, so it will be slow going.

They've also asked me to research Grass Carp, so I guess their pond is too green ;)

How would you spend the money?

Many thanks in advance,
JohnnyOscar

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 06 Sep 2003, 16:40

This would be easier if we knew the dimensions and what is already around the pond.
Is it likely to just get fucked up again?
Will the community take care of it after?

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 07 Sep 2003, 09:32

Hi Clothahump,

The pond is somewhere between 60,000 and 75,000 gallons. It has a small island in the middle.

I'm told all the current planting near the pond will be removed, so we can start from scratch.

I'm keen to have some shade trees nearby and a reed bed in the pond to encourage dragonflies and damselflies, but beyond that I'm pretty clueless.

As for maintenance, I think one of the parks officers will look after that, but we are probably going to have to be involved in this as well. Apparently, if it all goes well, the the government is going to give this a LOT of publicity. I'm told the Â£20,000 is coming from the Deputy Prime Minister's propaganda machine.

And if it all works out well, there are dozens of other forgotten community ponds in the area that need looking at. My local park has just received a Â£1m+ grant from the National Lottery to revive it to it's former Victorian glory. It has two empty ponds that need restoring. This could snowball....

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 07 Sep 2003, 09:43

email on route, have you got any pics of the pond?

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 07 Sep 2003, 12:42

I'll see if I can get some pics when I go down to take a look myself.

T · Post by T » 11 Sep 2003, 01:02

Wow this sounds like a cool project keep us updated.I'm amazed that the terripins can survive our winter climate.I think your first job is finding them a home.

FatCat · Post by **FatCat** » 11 Sep 2003, 04:51

First off, I have been specifically asked to find out what type of tree would be good to grow near the pond (ie. plentry of shade but no invasive roots). If anyone has any pointers I would be most grateful

.

Bald Cypress would be great in my opinion. Beautiful tree fast growing near water and pretty good for the shade. Very unique tree as it is a decidious conifer. My personal favorite tree. Good luck with the project. Yes keep us informed sounds like a great project to fall into your lap. Wish i had $20,000 to spend on a pond and fish.

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 11 Sep 2003, 19:19

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry, still no pics, but another question....

Pond linings: We are expecting to find extensive tree root damage to the existing lining. Can anyone recommend a good book on building/repaining large ponds? I'm guessing that it is concrete lined. Any special additives to the concrete?

As for the "terrapins", I've done a bit of research and discovered that they are most likely to be European pond turtles (Emys orbicularis). Does anyone have any ideas on what to do with them (other than turtle soup)? Maybe we could sell them or donate to a good home. Is there a market for adult Emys orbicularis in the UK?

T · Post by T » 11 Sep 2003, 19:30

You could probably give them to a animal sanctuary.Theres a big greenhouse type place near me in a local public park park that sometimes takes in unwanted exotic pets(including terrapins).

Check these news reports out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1660334.stm

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Eared_Terrapin

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 11 Sep 2003, 20:01

The concrete will need replacing if cracked, you can use a waterproofer in the concrete mix or seal it afterwards with G4 or similar, with winter coming I would use the waterproofer in the mix.
Shame I am not closer if I could see it I could give you better advice.

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 11 Sep 2003, 20:34

clothahump wrote:Shame I am not closer if I could see it I could give you better advice.

I'm trying to organise a digital camera. Once I've posted a few pics, it should be easier for people to see what needs doing.

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 12 Sep 2003, 21:20

You could always get me to come up and have a look at all three, I dont charge much for consultations.

Post by **Barbie** » 15 Sep 2003, 09:20

The page at http://www.koivet.com has some pretty extensive information, and also some good links to other sites related to pond needs. Hope that helps

Barbie

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 15 Sep 2003, 12:10

Cheers Barbie, great link

Clothahump -- still no pics. Someone's nicked the community centre's digital camera

It looks like we're going to have to reline the whole pond as well as intsall a new pump/filter, so we probably won't be able to spare a penny for professional consultants. That's why we have a clueless idiot (me) trawling the internet for any helpful suggestions he can find.

Incredibly, a plan is coming together. We have even blagged the use of some JCBs and whatnot from a local construction site.

I don't know when it will happen, but basically we plan to drain the pond into the local sewers, picking out any fish/amphibians/reptiles that are left flapping around in the mud afterwards. I'm working on rehoming and storage plans. It looks like my neighbour's WWII bomb shelter is going to find some use again (6' x 4' x 4', I reckon it will hold over 500 gallons when flooded).

Then the existing pond lining will probably be scooped out and dumped along with all the waste from the adjacent building site (at their expense, I hope...). Personally, I'd like to deepen a part of the pond to maybe 4' or even deeper. The spoil can be used to contour the land around the pond.

Next we reline the pond. I'm imagining convoys of cement mixing trucks, but it could just as easily be a couple of guys with spades and forlorn expressions. This could be expensive -- the last time I bought an integral waterproofer for concrete I got 5l for Â£20. I hope I can get a bulk purchase discount....

Once that has dried sufficiently we can fill it with water, adding plenty of the original sludge (minus hypodermic syringes, samurai swords, stolen credit cards, etc..). Actually, I'm not really very clear about this. Do we add some of the original sludge? If not, what do we root the aqautic plants in?

Next we plant the pond. Then, eventually we stock it. I still have no idea what fish to stock the pond with. Clearly we can't get anything expensive-- they WILL get stolen very quickly. I'm leaning towards large cheap carp of some kind or another. Goldfish will probabaly do. Maybe perch as well, although they'll probably find their own way into the pond.

So know everyone can see hiow utterly clueless I am. Comments and suggestions please...

Cheers,
JohnnyOscar

Post by **Silurus** » 15 Sep 2003, 12:29

Why not tench or chub? I think they're more interesting than carp. Otherwise, bream are pretty good candidates, too. At least they will grub about the sludge for food.

T · Post by T » 15 Sep 2003, 15:59

Lol perch(or Ratfish as I like to call them)will probably find thier way in no problem.

Most course fish will do well (chub, bream, roach, tench, perch(they are predatory though), bleak and even little sicklebacks(for the kids).

When are you planning this?You would have to work quick if your going to restock this year.

RogerMcAllen · Post by **RogerMcAllen** » 15 Sep 2003, 16:03

Goto the lfs and get a whole batch of feeders, thats how I stocked my pond.

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 16 Sep 2003, 14:07

We do not have feeder fish in the UK, it is classified as being cruel by most people.

Post by **Dinyar** » 16 Sep 2003, 15:48

Funny, I always thought fish 'n chips was very British. OK to trawl the oceans lifeless but not OK to feed fish some to other fish?

Dinyar

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 16 Sep 2003, 16:00

I must admit I do find it strange myself that we do not allow fish to eat fish but we allow children to die through lack of proper services.
Too many do gooders about I think.

RogerMcAllen · Post by **RogerMcAllen** » 16 Sep 2003, 16:24

If you don't have feeders, do you have large tanks of cheap goldfish that may or may not be accidentally be eaten by something larger?

clothahump · Post by **clothahump** » 16 Sep 2003, 16:40

We do Roger but it is a lot cheaper to use frozen food, Goldfish are not that cheap.

JohnnyOscar · Post by **JohnnyOscar** » 16 Sep 2003, 20:56

hahahahahhahhaahahahh

T · Post by T » 17 Sep 2003, 00:15

Yeah its true, if you ask for live feeders over here you get funny looks.It is a good thing though, I'm not a believer in using feeders unless the fish is a true picivore and will not accept anything else.But it does usually mean that if you do want feeders then the fish you buy will be better quality as they are being sold as regular pet fish, only difference is the price, goldfish are usually reasonably cheap in most shops though.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 17 Sep 2003, 02:20

A possible way of stocking the pond is too ask your local fish shops to advertise that you want fish! there are always people in the uk looking to dump carp and goldfish some where plus if you dont ask then they will probably be dumped anyway. grass carp grow big big quick and you can forget all plant life with them, your supplier will also need a licence too sell them so a lot have places have stoped. you should save some mature water and sludge and only but it back in about a week after the pond has been filled to definitly make sure there is no chlorine left. the unsealed concreat you are lining the pond with will make the pond pH very high no doubt, test it and hold off from puting large amounts of fish in till it comes down to about 8.5 peferably 8.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 17 Sep 2003, 14:51

Dinyar wrote:Funny, I always thought fish 'n chips was very British. OK to trawl the oceans lifeless but not OK to feed fish some to other fish?

Keeping ornamental fish is largely a luxury activity, whereas eating isn't (I'm ignoring the fact that the fisheries are totally mis-managed and over-exploited, and the fact that many of the species we do eat are certainly luxury items). We have a conscious choice whether or not to inflict more more stress on other organisms than is absolutely necessary, and the routine use of live fish as food for other fish falls on the wrong side of the line as far as I'm concerned.
It is IMO a sign of a good aquarist if a piscivorous fish can be conditioned to eat a safer and more controllable diet than live fish (I've never kept any fish that couldn't be moved onto 'dead' foods within a week or so), thus avoiding potential diseases and nutritional deficiencies.
The list of fish that will not accept dead foods following a bit of thought, care and work by the aquarist is very small, and we have a choice whether or not to keep these fish at all.
The risk of not being aware of these issues is that we may end up with the same attitude as the cretin from an earlier thread who amused himself by feeding larger Channel Cats to Piranhas, which resulted in the Catfish suffering a slow and unpleasant death (I know there is debate on whether fish can feel pain, but regardless of whether they do or not that kind of behaviour is a worrying relection on the personality of the individual concerned).
I have done it on very few occasions, but only when I felt it was absolutely necessary for the health of the fish, only when the prey fish would be killed very quickly and consumed 'whole', and only with fish that I was intending to cull anyway (using a painless method).

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 17 Sep 2003, 15:01

Silurus wrote:Why not tench or chub? I think they're more interesting than carp. Otherwise, bream are pretty good candidates, too.

Tench and Bream get rather large, and can disrupt the ecology of such a small pool. Chub are rheophilic, and although they have been stocked into many still waters over recent years it is now being somewhat frowned upon (they are also highly efficient predators on Amphibians and Odonata larvae, two groups under pressure in the UK).
I would avoid carp like the plague! They will demolish much of the desired macrophyte diversity, stir up sediment and generally make a mess.
The biggest fish I would put in there would be Rudd (I suppose you could use Golden Rudd for a bit more colour). Try and keep the planting strictly native, this will benefit other native fauna. Other fish would be the Nine-Spined Stickleback (rarer than the Three-Spined) and Gudgeon.
Try contacting the Education Dept. of the Environment Agency (make contact through their website, English Nature or your local Wildlife Trust. Any of these organisations will be able to advise you on turning this into a little oasis. If you want to know just how good a pond in a built up setting can be visit the Wildlife Garden at the Natural History Museum. There is also the Pondlife Trust who will be able to give help and advice (contact me by PM for their details).
United Utilities also have reason to want to support such local environmental initiatives, I would give them a call.
Pete

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 17 Sep 2003, 15:09

JohnnyOscar wrote:As for the "terrapins", I've done a bit of research and discovered that they are most likely to be European pond turtles (Emys orbicularis). Does anyone have any ideas on what to do with them (other than turtle soup)? Maybe we could sell them or donate to a good home. Is there a market for adult Emys orbicularis in the UK?

If they are Emys I can rehouse them for you. If they are Red-Eareds they are a problem.
I don't know of anyone currently who is taking on Red-Eared Terrapins.
Although Red-Eared are from the Southern US, they have been known to overwinter outdoors for many years successfully at least as far North in the UK as Bolton and Leeds.
They actually managed to breed as a feral species in the UK during the 90s in at least one location I have been told about.
Pete

T · Post by T » 17 Sep 2003, 16:00

Well I was under the impression that this is a somewhat large pool

.I think you would be better off sticking to the smaller species then, roach(also maybe the golden form), dace, sticklebacks, gudgeon, goldfish maybe.Nothing too predatory anyway(no perch or chub).

What about the little fat head/rosy minnows or would that pose to much of an escape risk?

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 17 Sep 2003, 17:22

T wrote:Well I was under the impression that this is a somewhat large pool .I think you would be better off sticking to the smaller species then, roach(also maybe the golden form), dace, sticklebacks, gudgeon, goldfish maybe.Nothing too predatory anyway(no perch or chub).

What about the little fat head/rosy minnows or would that pose to much of an escape risk?

Even 60-70,000 gallons is still a small body of water by natural standards (although it's a lot of 12 gallons tanks!). Wth this in mind I feel it is better to look at smaller native species, then it can be more than just a 'fish pond'.
The Rosy Red Minnnows (apparently a hybrid of Fathead and another unidentified Pimephales sp, or so I am told) are non-native, and if there is any proximity to a natural water course should probably not be considered.

The keys to heaven, so I'm told...

The keys to heaven, so I'm told...

the big pond.