L46 and the Belo Monte dam

[plecoboy]

I was looking at this map of the Rio Xingu and started thinking would the zebras (collected at Altamira) actually be impacted by the building of the proposed dam at Belo Monte? If you notice all of the dark green on the map, that is a lowland area that would probably be flooded by the new dam. Is it possible the zebras won't be affected?

[Janne]

No H. zebra are collected at Altamira and yes they will be impacted on the proposed dam that no longer is proposed, it's a fact that they will build the dam. Tomorrow I will use your map and show where the H. zebra are located and how the dam will look like etc.

Janne

[plecoboy]

Thanks Janne, hey do you know the collection point for the Lower Xingu hypans too?

[Janne]

Todo.

Janne

[celticfish]

Always appreciate your direct information from Brazil!

Am I correct to understand that the "dam" is actually a series of 5 dams along the Rio Xingu?
With the series of dams starting from Belo Monte to (unknown to me)?

[zenyfish]

With the series of dams starting from Belo Monte to (unknown to me)?

The river is flowing from south to north in the diagram above I assume? So everything up river will be impacted, as shown in flooded areas.

Seems like there will be a dam downriver also from Belo Monte, as the area is also flooded.

[Mike_Noren]

More dams have to be built to allow this dam to produce energy year round, so they're a given. Also everything downstream will be impacted, as the river is expected to completely dry out (!) in the dry season after the dam is built. Rheophilic species like H. zebra, gold nugget etc in the affected area of the river will basically only survive in tributaries, if at all.

[zenyfish]

Also everything downstream will be impacted, as the river is expected to completely dry out (!) in the dry season after the dam is built.

I did not realize they were going to dry out the river downstream. Not just fish, but all river life will be gone ... really depressing.

[Janne]

The blue is the dam's called "Belo Monte Hydroelectric power plant", the black line is the plant and the red lines is where they cut of the river. 2 channels are built to lead the water to the lower dam at Belo Monte. Between the 2 red lines (The big bend or Volta Grande) no water will flow from the main river Rio xingu, there are one tributary in this area but very small compared with the amount of water flowing in xingu. The yellow mark is the known localities of H. zebra. It's the big bend that risk to dry out completely under dry season, under all circumstances the water flow in the big bend will only be a promille of what it is today, in the big bend we find many endemic species and species adapted to fast oxygenated water flow will not survive in the dam's.

Janne

[jimoo]

Simply incredible. So sad. I wish there were another way.

[Linus_Cello]

Is this dam a World Bank Project? This makes me think of the Three Gorges Dam: I should go and see the river and it's natural treasures before they're destroyed.

Does anyone know if there are any US botanical or zoological institutions that will be working in the area to sample, collect and perhaps transport live specimens to keep as a separate population in captivity in a public facility (zoo/garden)? I'm hoping that some Brazillian Universities or zoological institution will be setting up a captive breeding program for some of the animals in that area.

[Janne]

Does anyone know if there are any US botanical or zoological institutions that will be working in the area to sample, collect and perhaps transport live specimens to keep as a separate population in captivity in a public facility (zoo/garden)?

Not allowed, and it's understandable.

I'm hoping that some Brazillian Universities or zoological institution will be setting up a captive breeding program for some of the animals in that area.

There are many projects on going within the universities here in Brazil, I'm involved in some of the projects too. The near larger future effects is among fish species and native people, not so much plants and other animals but of course they will be affected in the long term. One of the largest problem that really disturb all kind of conservation projects, field studies and the efforts to increase the value of this particular area of Rio xingu is the illegal trade of fish species, it creates daily conflicts and it decrease all involveds efforts to work with these projects... it take the energy out of people.

"Just empty the shit and don't show any respect for the environment", than nothing will be saved.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

One of the largest problem that really disturb all kind of conservation projects, field studies and the efforts to increase the value of this particular area of Rio xingu is the illegal trade of fish species, it creates daily conflicts and it decrease all involveds efforts to work with these projects

Oh come on. The Brazilian government is completely destroying one of the richest rivers on Earth, under bullshit pretexts after commissioning a bullshit environmental impact study, a project which even have seen several enviromental activists murdered, and you claim the illegal trade in fish is the biggest problem?
That's ridiculous. It's like complaining about termites in a burning house.

And the projects you're talking about, I assume you mean captive breeding programs? That's not conservation, it's at best a band-aid solution for a very few commercially important species.

[Suckermouth]

Man, this is depressing. I knew the dam was bad, but not this much.

[Janne]

Oh come on. The Brazilian government is completely destroying one of the richest rivers on Earth, under bullshit pretexts after commissioning a bullshit environmental impact study, a project which even have seen several enviromental activists murdered, and you claim the illegal trade in fish is the biggest problem?
That's ridiculous. It's like complaining about termites in a burning house.

Yes, its true that this rich river will soner or later be destroyed and the government have already made this decissions, so whats your point... you have to live in the reality? The illegal trade was small at that time the government made the environmental impact study which of course was really bad but the illegal trade is a problem today, but you really mean thats no idea to make any more studies because there are already one made and to late? I really don't get your point and you are working as scientist at NRM... do you want to make the research after some species already is extinct? For the moment there are several universities here working and want to work with projects concerning the huge impact this future dam construction will have on the Rio xingu system, I think you also want these researchers and scientist's to find and describe all species, make as much field studies they can when it' still possible?

And the projects you're talking about, I assume you mean captive breeding programs? That's not conservation, it's at best a band-aid solution for a very few commercially important species.

You should not assume nothing, you should only use facts like all scientist's, researchers etc. if not we will have the same problem like they have with the climate change.


Janne

[Mike_Noren]

but you really mean thats no idea to make any more studies because there are already one made and to late?

No, I mean that complaining about illegal capture of fish in a river scheduled to be utterly destroyed is silly. I don't think I could have designed a more destructive plan than what's in store for Rio Xingu if I tried - they're even going to divert the entire river several kilometers through concrete tubes! Poaching can, at worst, reduce the numbers of a few commercially important species, but the dam means wholesale destruction of the entire ecosystem and everything in it. I don't see how complaining about poaching makes sense in this context.

I think you also want these researchers and scientist's to find and describe all species, make as much field studies they can when it' still possible?

Of course, but this has what to do with illegal trade in fish, exactly?

You should not assume nothing, you should only use facts like all scientist's, researchers etc

And how could I possibly know which programs you were talking about? If you're not talking about selling animals from captive breeding programs, then I have no idea what conservation programs might find poaching of fish "one of the largest problems".

[Janne]

No, I mean that complaining about illegal capture of fish in a river scheduled to be utterly destroyed is silly.
Of course, but this has what to do with illegal trade in fish, exactly?

You know just like I know that there are quite many undescribed species with no research so ever made living in extremely small localities within this part of Rio xingu... they disapear much faster than you can imagine. Than we send some researchers from the UFPA to make a study hopefully find these species?? Do you really understand how dam difficult it's just to find them and to study them in nature??? This is not tetras living at the shores, this is higly valuable species needing quite large investments for an expedition... I should invite you and bring you to Rio xingu, put on you some diving equipment and through you in the river ;)

I don't think I could have designed a more destructive plan than what's in store for Rio Xingu if I tried - they're even going to divert the entire river several kilometers through concrete tubes! Poaching can, at worst, reduce the numbers of a few commercially important species, but the dam means wholesale destruction of the entire ecosystem and everything in it. I don't see how complaining about poaching makes sense in this context.

This is history, now we have to face the reality and make the best of the situation before the impacts starts to affect the environment... ok?

And how could I possibly know which programs you were talking about? If you're not talking about selling animals from captive breeding programs, then I have no idea what conservation programs might find poaching of fish "one of the largest problems".

You know that they only true conservation can only be made in the natural habitat of a species, let us work with that and let me teach them how many of these species biological reproduction works and what needs they need to survive in nature. You know they have not started to build the dam, let see if we can save some parts of this river.

Janne

[MatsP]

Just to confirm the statement that Xingu is one of the richest natural resources [with regards to fish at least]:
I did some collation of the occurrence data on Loricariidae in the Cat-eLog, and the single body of water with the most number, of species is Rio Xingu with 42 species, with another 10 if we count upper/middle/lower Xingu as well. All species listed for the Amazon is 46.

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Mats

[Janne]

I did some collation of the occurrence data on Loricariidae in the Cat-eLog, and the single body of water with the most number, of species is Rio Xingu with 42 species, with another 10 if we count upper/middle/lower Xingu as well. All species listed for the Amazon is 46.

I made a list of Loricariidae species occur in Rio xingu for some years ago, my list contained of +80 species and I'm absolutely sure we can find +100 species without any problem, counting all kind of catfishes we will easily pass +150 withing a few weeks of field studies. The minimum of fish species in Rio xingu with tributaries will easily increase to over 500 species and my guess is somewhere between 700-800 species of fishes can be found within the whole Rio xingu including all tributaries... the area covered is of the size of France for 1 main river and it's in the tropics.

Janne

[MatsP]

Janne,

I'm fully aware that we do not have ALL species that are in Rio Xingu (or the Amazon itself!). I was just trying to illustrate that Xingu is indeed species rich.

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Mats

[Janne]

Yes I know Mats, and I gave your message a little more substance to make it stronger... which is positive I think.

Janne

[MatsP]

Absolutely.

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Mats

[plecoboy]

Wow, thank you Janne for the illustration of the dams that really puts it in perspective. In regards to H. zebras location, in the P.C. catalog it states that H. zebras location is about one hour upstream from Altamira. Wouldn't that be the in lower left hand corner before the dams?

[Janne]

In regards to H. zebras location, in the P.C. catalog it states that H. zebras location is about one hour upstream from Altamira. Wouldn't that be the in lower left hand corner before the dams?Wow, thank you Janne for the illustration of the dams that really puts it in perspective. In regards to H. zebras location, in the P.C. catalog it states that H. zebras location is about one hour upstream from Altamira. Wouldn't that be the in lower left hand corner before the dams?

I have no idea what is stated in the Cat-eLog for H. zebra and if it's like you say it's completely wrong... I have no either any idea what locality the autors of H.zebra have put in the description, but the places I marked on the map is extremely close to the known localities of H. zebra and no other localities is known then these 4.

Janne

[MatsP]

The type location of "1hr upstream of Altamira" is from the original description. Whether that is correct or not, I can't say - but the original authors would probably know where the holotype comes from and not just make something up. But of course, the collector may have got the fish from someone else, that said "it comes from over there (pointing)", when it actually came from somewhere completely different.

I don't have the actual description (although I did find a PDF of it some time back on the web somewhere). It would be interesting to see where the other specimens came from...

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Mats

[Janne]

The type location of "1hr upstream of Altamira" is from the original description. Whether that is correct or not, I can't say - but the original authors would probably know where the holotype comes from and not just make something up.

If the location in the original description is like stated above I would not be supriced if the authors got confused in which direction Rio xingu flows... that Rio xingu is flowing from south to north, 1 h by speedboat downstream Altamira would be correct for the first location, upstream no H. zebra.

Janne

[MatsP]

You may well be right... Although one would think that it's fairly obvious whether you go along or against the flow of the water - but perhaps it's so many eddies and counterflows that it's hard to determine which way it's really flowing - especially if it was collected in dry season.

[Janne]

Not only may well... I know I'm right ;)

Janne

[plecoboy]

I wonder if there are a few pockets of zebras upstream from the dams. The locations Janne gave are really spread out so I don't think it would be totally out of the question.

[MatsP]

Not only may well... I know I'm right ;)

Janne

No, I mean you may well be right in the explanation to "upstream" vs "downstream" - I'm sure you are right about where these fishes are found.

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Mats