White Spots?

[sampster5000]

Hello. My name is Sam and I live in San Antonio, Texas. I am new to these forums. For the past few months I have been taking as much information as I can from your Cat-eLog and different forum posts. I have learned a lot and I am very glad I found this website! I am a big fan of cichlids and plecos. In the past year I discovered that there are more plecos than just the regular and albino. I have done tons of research and reading making sure I know what these plecos need in the tank like what temperature is best, tank mates that are good or bad, if they would like caves or driftwood, if other fish will mess with them, etc. I finally thought I had everything figured out, but I was wrong!

I recently lost a Gold Nugget, Adonis, and Orinoco to Ich. Every fish survived in the tank but the three plecos. I learned my lesson and now know that I should not put a nugget and adonis together and that I must give them caves or hiding places and some driftwood. I was very disappointed because the L201 was my first "rare" (in my world) pleco and has survived this long. With the nugget came the ich and with the ich came the plecos death. I have saved my tank twice now from ich by raising the temperature to 88 and adding a little bit of salt but I have never saved a pleco from this horrible parasite.

About 7 years ago my dad brought home a 10 gallon tank to put in my room. I wasnt too excited because I knew I would have to feed these fish, change the filters, change the water, deal with the noisy dripping water from the filter, etc. When we went to Petsmart, after the tank had cycled, I saw plecos for the first time. I had never seen anything cooler in my life and had to bring one home. That pleco was what got me into the world of fish. He (I have always called it a He because I have no idea how to tell between male and female) has survived everything that has come at him in 3 different tanks. He is my oldest fish and my prized possession. With that being said, it would take a big chunk out of my heart to see him die.

I have lost a good number of plecos to Ich and it has been a learning experience. I have tried a few different kinds of medicines but they never seemed to work. The medicines I used killed my fish faster than the ich could. (And I did not overdose!) What has always worked has been the raising of the temperature to 86-88 degrees Fahrenheit. This has never worked with my plecos though. They are always the first to die. One thing that confuses me is that I have never actually seen signs of ich on their body but from reading more into plecos with ich I have found that it gets in their gills first causing them to stop breathing. (If I am wrong, correct me!)

A few days ago I noticed a white dot on my regular pleco. He is about 8 inches long right now and is the toughest fish I have ever owned. Sharing the tank with him are 4 cichlids about 3-4 inches long, a pictus catfish at 3 inches, a L168 butterfly pleco at about 2.5 inches and a L83(I think) Sail Fin at about 2.5 inches. I have never had problems with this tank other than some mean green terrors and firemouths which I quickly removed and a feisty four line catfish which I also removed. I have never had Ich in this tank or any other parasite or disease. The temperature stays around 76-78 and always has. The fish have never shown any sign of sickness and the only fish I lost was a jellybean parrotfish who was died one day (stress from being bullied I believe). At first I believed these dots to be ich because I also saw spots on my Sail Fin. The reason I don't believe it to be ich now is due to the fact that I saw the white spot (much larger than a salt or sugar grain size like ich) jump off of my regular pleco and move over to another spot on his body and attach. Today would be the third day that I have seen white dots on my plecos. The white spots (or bugs?) have increased. The sail fin has spots all over him now, or so it seems. This morning there were no spots on him but when I looked an hour ago they were all over him. The regular had about 3 dots when I last looked and the butterfly has none. He stays in his ship until night time but I have seen no signs of spots on him.

I have never seen this before and I would really like to know how to fix this problem. Are these white things deadly? Is there a way to get them out of the water? Did I do something in particular to cause them? I am just confused because I have done nothing different to the water for many months other than adding Prime water conditioner. If anyone could help me out here I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you for your time...

All I know about my tank is this:
2 Biowheel filters
Bi-Weekly 25% water changes
2 Fluorescent Lights
Water conditioned with Prime every water change
Limestone rocks
Fake plants
Blue, pink, green gravel
Temperature Range is 76-78 F

I am going to try and post some pictures too of the spots on my Sail Fin. It is barely on my regular right now so the pictures of him wont help much.

P.S. The plecos have never shown any sign of aggression and everyone seems to get along fine.

[sampster5000]

Pictures:

Sail Fin with spots on head and nose


My Regular Pleco with small spots on his head (too hard to see on picture)


Butterfly actually came out of his ship (hard to get a good pic of him)

[Linus_Cello]

Any info on water parameters? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
I'm guessing, with the limestone and hard texas water, your water isn't optimal and could be stressing your fish. Plecos prefer acidic and soft water.

[Janne]

To use the temperature even more effecient against Ich is to rasie the temp. to 90-92 F (32-33 C), use areation and add salt, at this temp. the parasites start to die only by the temperature, if raising to little only speed up the lifecycel.
This will also help against the false fungal infection (flagelate parasite I think if I remember correct) they have now.
Malachitgreen (in many medications for fishes) is effective against Ich and quite harmless to Plecos, don't use medicines based on copper for Plecos.

Any info on water parameters? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
I'm guessing, with the limestone and hard texas water, your water isn't optimal and could be stressing your fish. Plecos prefer acidic and soft water.

This is the cause to both Ich and False Fungal Infection, check so your filter works properly, enough areas for denstity etc.

Janne

[sampster5000]

So the temperature raise works for any parasites? Thanks. I'll have to do that then. I am getting my water checked today so I will have the info posted soon. Ive never had problems with fish in my water and my common pleco has been fine for the last 7 years in it.

[Janne]

So the temperature raise works for any parasites?

No, but against Ich and false fungal infection.

Janne

[MatsP]

Ich (and similar things) are quite often capable of "slowly turning over" in a tank, but not breaking out. Then something causes the fish to be stressed - it could be new occupants in the tank, a drop in temperature [I once got ich in a tank because I had turned off the heater and forgot to turn it back on (I think that was the reason at least - nothing else was occurring/changing in the tank at the time!)].

It's a bit like us humans, we can carry a cold virus around most of the time, without getting a cold. But sometimes during stress, the cold breaks out. And very rarely, it leads to further complications, such as bronchitis or pneumonia. This is very rare, but it happens.

The same applies to fish - something that CAN make the fish ill, the immune system will keep under control until there is a stress factor that causes the immune system to not cope.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Not all White Spots are symptoms of Ich and that is especially true among Plecos.
True Ich is easily cured with a malachite green Ich medication and you normally do not need to raise the temperatures higher than 84*F.
Any white Spot disease which cannot be cured within about a week is likely to be a different organism. The treatment remains the same but the duration of the treatment period might have to be 3 or 4 times as long as that needed to cure Ich.
Only a microscopic examination of a skin smear sample can give you an exact identification of the causative organism.

[sampster5000]

I'll see if it goes away after the 3-4 days but I honestly do not think it is Ich. Ich cannot jump off of the fish and on to a different part of their body.

[apistomaster]

I'll see if it goes away after the 3-4 days but I honestly do not think it is Ich. Ich cannot jump off of the fish and on to a different part of their body.

That is true but only if you view the spots as individual entities. They are not, and the same is true of the other skin ectoparasitic protozoan parasites, each visible cyst contains sometimes hundreds of the infectious stage of the respective diseases. So more spots are almost inevitable without successful medication/intervention. You are doing about all you can in any case. The time and difficulty you encounter in treating or the disease will help you learn how to handle these other diseases which have a superficial resemblance to Ich. It is fortunate that one medication, malachite green, does eventually work on nearly all of the similar diseases. However, some are harder than others to eradicate and not suffer some fish losses. The treatments will be more effective if they are carried out in a separate bare aquarium. The usual organic wastes present in a normal display aquarium can severely limit it's effectiveness. Ideally, all the fish, infected or not should be treated in isolation. The display tank should go fishless for a few weeks so all the microscopic, free swimming, infectious stages fail to find a host in their prescribed time and having failed, they die. The display tank is saved to exposure to the medication and the reinfection cycle will be broken. For Ich, malachite green is so effective that the disease is easily eliminated and plants do not suffer much from the treatment. However with these more stubborn parasites, the treatment must be extended and the dosage maintained at the therapeutic strength and if you have any important plants they could become severely stressed. Nearly all the dye medications are toxic to some degree to all living things but that is usually time and dose dependent. If you haven't cleared the problem up in 7 days then I really recommend using a separate treatment tank and treat all the fish which share this infected tank. Ich is so much more straightforward a parasite to treat than those that resemble it.

[Janne]

I'll see if it goes away after the 3-4 days but I honestly do not think it is Ich. Ich cannot jump off of the fish and on to a different part of their body.

This will also help against the false fungal infection (flagelate parasite I think if I remember correct) they have now.

To use the temperature even more effecient against Ich is to rasie the temp. to 90-92 F (32-33 C), use areation and add salt, at this temp. the parasites start to die only by the temperature, if raising to little only speed up the lifecycel.

No, but against Ich and false fungal infection.

Janne

[apistomaster]

I actually resort to elevating the temperature and use malachite green for these more difficult to treat these more difficult to cure flagellated protozoan skin parasites. I have never heard of any of these referred to a "false fungus" infections. Never noticed any symptoms which were similar to any fungus on fish I have ever encountered that would lead me to think for a moment they had any resemblance to a fungal infection. I get that you do not consider them fungus related in anyway, Janne.

I am just sharing my treatments for these diseases which have worked for me once you have determined Ich was not the opponent.
I have had to use the same dangerously high temperatures in conjunction with the medications at times. It seems like I may lack the same faith in a salt+high temperature treatment regime as you so I include the use a malachite green.
These other non-Ich pest I dread and pleased to have collected the fish I want so I don't have to deal with them anymore. I did learn a lot in having these bad experiences and I am glad I have a microscope to identify the particular bug I am dealing with. That is in fact the first thing I do. I only salt and heat work then that is great. I honestly can say I haven't simply left it to those aspects of attacking these parasites before. The most important aspect of treating these diseases is that you do so in a designated treatment tank optimized for that purpose.
High temperature, salt and any chemicals you may use are most effective in bare tanks where no harm will come to any plants or invertebrates that may be living in display tanks.
I identify the parasites microscopically so I know what I can expect before the disease becomes too severe. The value of knowing exactly what you are dealing with can not be debated.

[Janne]

I get that you do not consider them fungus related in anyway, Janne.

No I don't, it's an ectoparasite but with a second infection with fungus that are easy to missunderstand like it would be the fungus causing the disease. I also mentioned to use Malachitegreen because most heaters can't be put on such high temperatures and most hobbyist's maybe should not laborate at these high temperatures without experience, the oxygen level drops dramatically if not heavy aeration is used and if so that can also kill the plecos.

But to avoid these diseases is easy, good water with correct water temperature, generally plecos from the lower amazon (low altitude) should never be kept under 27 C... 28-30 C is optimal.

Janne

[sampster5000]

Thanks for your responses. I will keep the temperature up for the 3-4 day period. If I dont see any change of the white spots I will have to find some medication that using malachite green. The only thing I am worried about with raising the temperature so high is if my cichlids will be okay. They have done great so far, along with the plecos, and I dont want to stress them out. Around 86 or even up to 92 degrees seems very dangerous!

[apistomaster]

86^F is not going to be a problem but around 90*F you have to be very cognizant of the lower dissolved O2 content; a parameter that is temperature dependent.
You seem to have missed my point about the importance of using a separate treatment tank. If the Cich lids have evaded infection then just remove and treat the plecos in a separate treatment tank.
When you shop look for medications which only contain malachite green as the active ingredient. Avoid the combination of malachite green and formalin which is a common form of fish medication being sold.

[Janne]

Most medications with Malachite green is disolved in Formalin, if you don't find any other this works good with plecos.
False fungal infection is common within plecos but quite uncommon on cichlids that seams to be much more resistant against this ectoparasite.

Janne

[sampster5000]

My problem is I dont have an extra tank big enough to hold 4 cich lids and I dont have the money to go get one. My only spare tank right now is a 2.5 gallon so I'll just have to work with what I've got. I do agree that placing them in a seperate tank to treat them is a great idea. I dont want medicine in my main tank.

[apistomaster]

Sometimes you have to shop on-line for a formula based only on malachite green but it isn't hard to find. Even my LFS in this remote location stocks it but the combination of formalin+malachite green is often what you find in stock at a LFS. It doesn't contain much malachite green so it doesn't stain your aquarium's silicone sealant. The reason I don't like formalin for use on delicate, expensive plecos is that these odder ectoparasites are also often attacking the gills. Formalin can be quite irritating to fishes gills and that seems to me like the last thing we would want to aggravate with the medication. I can see using cheap formalin for large fish like Koi or major aquaculture where the expenses are so important but I have never felt comfortable about using it on small tropical fish but many authorities recommend formalin.
Much of my experience is with fish which have arrived with advanced stages of infection and badly starved after up to a couple weeks in various distributors tanks. Your fish seem to have a persisting but low grade infection. It may still take time to clear it up but it did not look to me like your fish were distressed nor in bad condition so that should make things easier to resolve.

[Janne]

I'm sure it's enought in your case to raise the temperature as much you can and add aeration or an extra powerhead to keep the oxygen level saturated, add some salt too 30-40 ml/100L. I don't think your cichlids will take any harm for 3-4 days that is enough in most cases.

I do agree with Larry about formalin, we treat quite many fishes in my work and have been using formalin to disolve many different medications (stock solutions) but have start to use destilled water instead. Formalin is effective but often too effective and it's also a cancerogen product and not so healthy, the problem for most people is when they ask on a forum what dieseas their fishes have they mostly don't have any medication at home or available... so they have to go directly to their retailer and buy what they can find. If order from internet the fishes will die before they receive the medication, even if everything is perfect and no medication is needed for a very long time (maybe never) it's always good to have some always at home and in the refrigerator (not formalin) because when they are needed it's often emergancy.

Janne

[sampster5000]

Thanks for the help everyone. From what I've read I guess the main cure for all of these parasites in malachite green based formulas. If the fish arent better in a few days i'll have to pick up some medication. I'll make sure I get the right kind by asking the workers at my LFS.

[Linus_Cello]

Again, what's your water parameter info? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

Malachite green treatment may only deal with the short term problem of the illness/symptoms, but not the ultimate cause (if poor water conditions, improper pH, etc). You may need to remove the limestone and swap it for bogwood/driftwood and some almond leaves or something to help bring down the pH.

[sampster5000]

My PH is at 7.6 in this tank. It is 7.6 in all of my tanks. Then I tested our water out of the tap and its 7.6. I dont know if the limestone is actually changing the water but I am going to try the adding of driftwood. I didnt test my ammonia, nitrite and nitrates because shouldnt they always be at 0? Thx for the help! My common pleco is doing better but he decided to start fighting with my sail fin. Im adding in some driftwood and some cool fake wood structures that are hollow. That gives more hiding places than my badly made rock caves!

[apistomaster]

My PH is at 7.6 in this tank. It is 7.6 in all of my tanks. Then I tested our water out of the tap and its 7.6. I dont know if the limestone is actually changing the water but I am going to try the adding of driftwood. I didnt test my ammonia, nitrite and nitrates because shouldnt they always be at 0? Thx for the help! My common pl*co is doing better but he decided to start fighting with my sail fin. Im adding in some driftwood and some cool fake wood structures that are hollow. That gives more hiding places than my badly made rock caves!

The nitrates can't be zero unless you have fresh water running through your tank all the time.

[Linus_Cello]

Unfortunately in some places in the U.S., water straight from the tap can contain dangerous levels of nitrates (>20 ppm) (mostly places that get well water contaminated with excess fertilizers). This is responsible for the "blue baby syndrome." If your tap water has dangerous levels of nitrates, one workaround would be to condition the water in a tank of aquatic plants. The plants would absorb/remove some of the nitrates, and then you can use that water for your tank.
I would check your nitrates/nitrites/amonia for your tank (and nitrates from your tap) just to be sure. Depending on your bio load in the tank and how often (and the magnitude) of your water changes, the levels may not actually be zero.

To soften and lower the pH of your water, you can try almond leaves, oak leaves, or you can buy distilled water or a Reverse Osmosis unit. Or you can collect filtered rain water. There are also chemical buffers. I would aim for a pH of at least 7.0 (but slightly more acid is of course better for your plecs).

[MatsP]

My PH is at 7.6 in this tank. It is 7.6 in all of my tanks. Then I tested our water out of the tap and its 7.6. I dont know if the limestone is actually changing the water but I am going to try the adding of driftwood.

A pH of 7.6 is indicative of quite hard water, in which case the limestone probably won't have much effect, but it certainly won't lower the pH. I somehow doubt that any sane amount of leaves, bogwood, etc will have any measurable effect on the pH either. And I honestly don't think it's the cause of your problems either. It's not ideal, but I keep several of my species in the waste-water of my RO system, which has a pH of about 7.5, and they are doing just fine. But they do have a slow river flowing through, as the RO system produces about 600 liters of water a week, and the waste-water is about 4x more than that - so for the 400 liters of tanks, I change about 2500 liters of water - so that averages 600% water change every week.

I didnt test my ammonia, nitrite and nitrates because shouldnt they always be at 0?

As stated before, zero nitrate is nearly impossible to achieve, but more importantly, you SHOULD have zero ammonia and zero nitrite, and the reason for testing this is that if your fish are getting ill, it's PROBABLY caused by something - and ammonia/nitrite poisioning is definitely one of the possible causes.

Nitrate can also be a problem - what can happen is that if you do not do large enough water changes, the nitrate level slowly builds up. Eventually, if this goes on for some time, the nitrate level gets to harmful levels.

Thx for the help! My common pleco is doing better but he decided to start fighting with my sail fin. Im adding in some driftwood and some cool fake wood structures that are hollow. That gives more hiding places than my badly made rock caves!

[Back]

But they do have a slow river flowing through, as the RO system produces about 600 liters of water a week, and the waste-water is about 4x more than that - so for the 400 liters of tanks, I change about 2500 liters of water - so that averages 600% water change every week.

Thread hijacking here but - RO?
Probably missed something and can't figure out what RO is.
Something with how you use household water?

[MatsP]

RO = Reverse Osmosis (system). The process of producing pure water through "reverse osmosis", which uses a pressure of the input water to "push" clean water through a membrane. This gives approximately 20% pure water, and 80% waste-water -> waste-water contains a little bit more "dirt" (primarily calcium carbonate ("hardness") and approximately 35 ppm nitrate in my case).

--
Mats

[Back]

RO = Reverse Osmosis (system). The process of producing pure water through "reverse osmosis", which uses a pressure of the input water to "push" clean water through a membrane. This gives approximately 20% pure water, and 80% waste-water -> waste-water contains a little bit more "dirt" (primarily calcium carbonate ("hardness") and approximately 35 ppm nitrate in my case).

Ah yes! Thanks.

[Janne]

wrote:
Any info on water parameters? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.
I'm guessing, with the limestone and hard texas water, your water isn't optimal and could be stressing your fish.

wrote:
This is the cause to both Ich and False Fungal Infection, check so your filter works properly, enough areas for denstity etc

Janne

[sampster5000]

Thanks everyone. The white spots disappeared completely from my common pleco. I see a few on my sail fin but not as many as before. I'll buy some ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits as soon as I can. My fish all seem to be doing fine right now so hopefully they stay like that.