Bristlenoses, but which ones?

[KittyKat]

Some two or so years ago, I was offered two F1 bred pairs of bristlenoses (from a reputable source). I still have one of the pairs who are breeding very well for me, but would like to ID them once and for all.. so if anyone here could help me?

Alpha male:


Female:


Fry (F2):


Tail detail present on both females and males, although becomes less prominent in males with age while the females retain it:

[Dave Rinaldo]

I think it's the common hobby bred

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

[Suckermouth]

I agree, the parents look EXACTLY like mine. The fry's spots seem larger than on my fry, but then again I haven't taken close-up pictures, hehe.

[andywoolloo]

They look like my common ancistrus. Very good pictures and handsome fish you have !!

[MatsP]

I agree.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

i agree with everyone probably a calico variety

[Bijn]

probably a calico variety

absolutely not

[Amberdawn]

I can see the two toned look on the alpha male, but it is still just a normal variation within brown. While it can be similar in pattern, especially as an adult, calico has a much more distinctly black over reddish coloring.

[MatsP]

Not calico, for sure. They do vary a bit in colour, both between individuals, and the same individual will show different colours based on mood, environment, and feeding, etc.

--
Mats

[Haavard Stoere]

Some two or so years ago, I was offered two F1 bred pairs of bristlenoses (from a reputable source).

Well... If the information is correct it is probably not A. cirrhosus, but another species of brown bristlenose. If the information is incorrect it is A. cf. cirrhosus. It sure looks a lot like A. cf. cirrhosus.

Not knowing the location of origin it is difficult. You could try to count the number of soft rays in the small fin behind its arse. If the number is three the species is A. triradiatus. A. triradiatus is quite common and one of the few that can be identified without knowing the location.

[KittyKat]

I was about to reply with an only slightly disappointed "thanks" only to get a notification of a new reply. Of course the first thing I did was catch out the first one I could see and count the rays: three.

But a quick look at the profile on here produced another minor mystery for me - if you are correct - in that there were 125 hatchlings which I stole from the male about a week ago, almost double the number mentioned in the profile. Is this possible?

I should have also provided the following at the start: the alpha male is about 13cm/5in long, while the largest female is about 10cm/4in long. All males and females have same colouring and patterns as the ones shown in the photos. The juveniles show consistent colouring with females up until they reach sexual maturity at which point the males develop the slightly patchy look of the one shown in the photo.

[Suckermouth]

How many females do you have? Males will breed with multiple females and protect multiple broods at a time.

[KittyKat]

Three mature females, that would explain it.. although I have only ever spotted him letting the largest female near the cave.

[MatsP]

Whilst I can't completely rule out A. triradiatus, I don't believe it is that - the colour is not right, in my opinion. It is of course possible that they are wild-caught fish. But the fact that they are breeding like rabbits also indicate that they are probably the common variety. They are definitely the by far easiest fish to breed of the Ancistrus, because they have been bred in captivity for a long time, and have gotten used to that.

--
Mats

[racoll]

You could try to count the number of soft rays in the small fin behind its arse. If the number is three the species is A. triradiatus. A. triradiatus is quite common and one of the few that can be identified without knowing the location.

How many anal fin rays is the common bristlenose supposed to have?

[Haavard Stoere]

How many anal fin rays is the common bristlenose supposed to have?

Don`t know, but from how I understand the text below it has more than three.

According to Seidel "L-Catfishes":
The bristlenose most frequently imported from Colombia. The specific name refers to a morphological peculiarity of this species, specifically that the anal fin usually has only three soft rays.

[Haavard Stoere]

Kittycat: I would count again. Counting the rays of the anal fin is very difficult.

I just counted the rays on my male A. triradiatus, and the number was three. It wasnt easy. Each of the three softrays split into two almost at the base. I had to hold it under water in good lighting and against a white background to see. I would of course photograph it, but my camera is destroyed.

I also agree with Mats that the color don`t seem right.

[Haavard Stoere]

But a quick look at the profile on here produced another minor mystery for me - if you are correct - in that there were 125 hatchlings which I stole from the male about a week ago, almost double the number mentioned in the profile. Is this possible?

I have seen (had) a large number of eggs from a single A. triradiatus female. I didn`t count, but I think it must have been 100. Probably nearer to 160. She was/is only around 9-10 cm. The information in Cat-eLog on numbers like that are correct according to the information available at the time it is written.

Anyways... A close up photo of the anal fin would settle the A. triradiatus thing issue. From Seidels text it seems like only A. triradiatus has that number of soft rays.

[apistomaster]

I think these are common aquarium strain bushy nose but I see little difference between commons and

Ancistrus triradiatus

.
I had a trio of albinos which the male regularly bred consecutively with both females. Combined yield produced 200 fry per time. There were mere hours separating the consecutive spawns so all the fry left the cave at the same time.

[Haavard Stoere]

Exactly! A. triradiatus looks very common and are very easy to breed, and produce large broods. Just like A. cf. cirrhosus.

The fish in question have been stated to be F1s from wild parents. Therefore they are unlikely to be the real A. cirrhosus as these are not commonly imported.

To conclude there are three possibilities:
-The information from the reputable breeder is wrong, and they are ordinary A. cf. cirrhosus.
-They are A. triradiatus. The number of soft rays in the anal fin should be the key if the key is correct.
-They are something else.

[apistomaster]

I welcome the addition of each new species to the hobby yet fear that these very similar Ancistrus species will be difficult to keep pure once loosed upon the general fish keeping public where pedigrees are not maintained and breeders knowingly or not will create hybrids even more difficult to distinguish from the common aquarium Ancistrus. I don't see much that stands in the way of this, do you, Haavard?

[MatsP]

I caught one of my Bristlenoses yesterday. But I couldn't tell how many rays there are in the anal fin. I'm going to have another look later on today. But I can say for sure that it's "not that many", so it's more a case of "is it 2, 3 or 4", rather than "it certainly isn't 3" - sorry, that may not make much sense... What I'm trying to say is that I'm not at all convinced that 3 couldn't be the number of anal fin rays on common bristlenoses.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

Having a look on recently described new species, it seems like it's common to have i,4 - so four soft rays. But that's not to say that there ARE other fishes with 3 soft rays.

--
Mats

[Haavard Stoere]

I welcome the addition of each new species to the hobby yet fear that these very similar Ancistrus species will be difficult to keep pure once loosed upon the general fish keeping public where pedigrees are not maintained and breeders knowingly or not will create hybrids even more difficult to distinguish from the common aquarium Ancistrus. I don't see much that stands in the way of this, do you, Haavard?

Sure they will get mixed by ordinary aquarists with little knowledge, but as long as their habitats are intact we can always get new ones.
Mature specimens of A. triradiatus are imported in very large numbers, and ignorent fishkeepers missing a male or female for their A. cf. cirrhosus will often buy an inexpensive mature wild cought A. triradiatus rather than buying juvenile A. cf. cirrhosus. If some A. cf. cirrhosus. have 3 soft spines in their anal fin this mixing might be the reason, but that is just speculation.

[Haavard Stoere]

Having a look on recently described new species, it seems like it's common to have i,4 - so four soft rays. But that's not to say that there ARE other fishes with 3 soft rays.

--
Mats

The number of soft rays are not constant on a species as we learned in this thread about the suspected L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus. http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=27492 The fish had 9 soft rays in its dorsal fin and should therefore be L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus. It clearly wasnt L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus.

[MatsP]

The number of soft rays are not constant on a species as we learned in this thread about the suspected L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus. http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=27492 The fish had 9 soft rays in its dorsal fin and should therefore be L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus. It clearly wasnt L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus.

Well, that particular fish, I'm fairly sure, is a hybrid, where one parent is L183.

Rays are used as ONE of the morphometrics. None of the fishes had different number of anal fin rays in the docs I read - there were differences in Dorsal spines and Caudal rays.

-
Mats

[Jackster]

I don't think these are A. cirrhosus. Remember there are dozens of species
that look almost the same and also many undescribed species. I think your
catfish are most likely from Colombia so

Ancistrus triradiatus

would fit since
they usually come from the Orinoco. Your fry look close to a common BN fry
but the adults don't and the mottled pattern of the Alpha male in the first
photo is very typical of A. triradiatus.

These are "common" bristlenose and the mother came from Brazil
with a shipment of Ancistrus L183.


These are from Peru (for sure) but I have no idea what species they are.

[KittyKat]

Hi everyone,

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner, work has kept me busy lately!

MatsP, not like rabbits just regularly with good care and water.

Haavard, I was very careful when I counted and made sure that the fish had her fin well spread out, but I will count again on a few other specimens, just to be sure. The rays do split under 1 mm from the base. Is there anything else that I could look for?

Jackster: yes, all the males are mottled with very similar pattern

[Haavard Stoere]

Haavard, I was very careful when I counted and made sure that the fish had her fin well spread out, but I will count again on a few other specimens, just to be sure. The rays do split under 1 mm from the base. Is there anything else that I could look for?

A triradiatus has a very brownish "common" look both in shape and pattern.

When a reputable breeder tells me a fish he sells is F1 I assume he is telling the truth. Therefore I don`t think the fish are A. cirrhosus. Since the fish are brown, common looking and has three soft rays in its anal fin I would conclude that the fish probably are A. triradiatus. Especially since it is so common in the trade. I could be very-very wrong, so I would take all other opinions into consideration.