New L204s--Please help verify sex

[leej24]

Hi all,

This is my first species of panaque sp. outside of the only other plecos I've kept (ancistris sp. L144). I bought them as 1m/1f and two unknowns (these two are about 3"). When he bought them, he also bought them as 1m/1f; however, from what he said the smaller of the two bigger ones spend most of its time in the cave, but I think it just did that because he had them in a 20L with some community fish (Tiger barbs, etc).

Questions:

I know they are a meaty species, but I don't have any earthworm sticks handy at the moment. I know they eat bloodworms and shrimp, but would I be able to feed them cichlid flakes/pellets. I also have a mixture of aquadine (it contains meat, spirulina, veggie and color enhancing pellets).

Is a 20L too small to house the 4 of them?

Thanks,

Here is the male (5.5" from head to tail):
The brightness of the photo is from the sun setting.



Here is the female (4.5" from head to tail):

Rear view:



The other two look just like these two but smaller.

[drpleco]

First of all, these are NOT a "meaty" species. They are a wood-eating panaque that needs a high fiber/roughage based diet. Meat will clog their very long digestive tract and cause problems in the long-term. If you do feed regular fish food, feed New Life Spectrum as it dissolves very well inside of a fish. I use it as a staple on all of my plecos, regardless of genus. 204's are also very aggressive critters and a 20l might not work, and most likely will not work in the long term. I have a big male that will kill any other panaque if given the chance.

Males are easy to ID, but females are very hard to sex because they will have some odentodes, too, and subdominant males look like females. Your best bet might be to split them up and see if your "female" grows spikes. If not, then you might have something. That said, your second fish does look female.

[leej24]

Thank you, drpleco. My apologies for calling them a MEATY pleco. That's what I was told. I won't be keeping anything with them in the tank, so if a 20L is too small than I might have to keep my 55g running and use that for them.

[drpleco]

No need to apologize...you didn't know and at least you're here asking questions. Someone who cares less about their fish would just throw whatever food in the tank and slowly kill the fish. My apologies if my previous response seemed aggressive...it's tough to convey things via text.

Just keep an eye on them and see how it goes. If you have enough structure in the tank, the 20l might be OK - especially if the fish have already been together for a while. That actually might be a good sign as far as sexing goes. If your two adults haven't killed eachother, then they might not be rival males. Not sure on that one. I guess all you can do is give them good caves and wait. I'm bringing my own group of 204's back to WI so it'll be great if you can breed yours because that'll mean that the conditions will be right for mine, too. Keep us all posted!

Andy

[leej24]

drpleco,

Yes, these L204s have been together for over 1-1/2 from the previous owner and before that three of them were together as well. The fourth one has been with them for at least 1 year and they seem to be doing fine. No one seems like they are not liked by the others. There is also a L081 in there with them and it isn't picked on. I'll post a picture of their tank once I have it set up. They're currently in a smaller tank (quarantined) until I can make sure they're free of diseases.

What part of Wisconsin will you be coming back to?

[drpleco]

I'm coming back to Wausau in 6 weeks...can't wait. My new place has a 16'x22' basement area that I got permission to use as a fishroom. She then gets the rest of the house, but that's fine with me.

[Bas Pels]

fair deal - even if the rest was a castle

masny people will envy you. Howevrer, I'm not one of them, as I got a 10 * 20 feet fishroom AND some 15 tanks in the rest of the house

[drpleco]

fair deal - even if the rest was a castle

masny people will envy you. Howevrer, I'm not one of them, as I got a 10 * 20 feet fishroom AND some 15 tanks in the rest of the house

nice!

[Haavard Stoere]

Is a 20L too small to house the 4 of them?

20 liter is to small for any pleco species. L204s should at least have 100 liter. Preferably much more.

If they are given a wide selection of woods to eat they will eat little else.

[leej24]

Oh no,

I meant 20 Long (20 gallons, ~76liters). I have a 55gallon (208Liters) set up right now but there are Tanganyikans (Triglachromis otostigma) in there right now and I do have a buyer for them, but he won't be picking them up anytime soon. I could put them in there after he picks them up. All I would have to do is empty the tank of the aragonite sand and add gravel or another type of sand that doesn't drive up the pH.

If I used the 20 gallon, there will be a powerfilter on it with the sponge filter and a HOT Magnum 350 on it. Same will apply with the 55gallon.

[drpleco]

Read this article...it's excellent and should help you out a lot:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=354

[Haavard Stoere]

Oh no,

I meant 20 Long (20 gallons, ~76liters). I have a 55gallon (208Liters)

lol

[apistomaster]

I raised 8 of these L204 and I never did become very good at sexing even large adults. I eventually traded all mine for other species, Subdominant males are very hard for me to tell from the females. heck, i have trouble sexing all but the most obvious males.
I think a sexed trio just may spawn in only a 20 long but they do get to be pretty large as older adults so I probably wouldn't try breeding them in anything smaller than a 40 gal breeder style tank.

They do eat a large amount of wood and produce a corresponding amount of bulky saw dust.
They are also quite omnivorous but they will also keep the side panels algae free. This is helpful because you can more easily see all the debris they produce .
They do like earth worm sticks but I would use more Spirulina sticks and supplement their diet with frozen blood worms.
Once they were well acclimated, mine seemed durable and hardy but I sold some of my adults to friends with little experience with L-number plecos and i felt their tanks were adequate but between the 2 friends, they lost all 5 within a few months after I had had them for a couple of years. I don't know what's up with that. I kept what I thought was a trio in a 29H but finally decided i had retained only males. They kept the 29H pretty well trashed with their waste products. Maybe they are best kept by more experience pleco people?
I found the adults to be more difficult to sex than Hypancistrus and Peckoltia species

So I consider the L204 a handsome species that is above average in difficulty rating them as breeding projects. Large tanks may be the best way to set up your breeders. I don't know all the answers or i would have bred them. i kept mine in tanks with plenty of caves and wood with strong power head currents and air powered large sponge filter. My water is natural moderately hard with a pH of 7.4, KH 6 and GH of 7 with a TDS of about 340 ppm. This water should have been satisfactory for breeding them. I kept mine at about 84*F.

[Rohan Richardson]

At 4.5cm tl these are very easy to sex as shown in aqualog books(all Lno.s or The most beatiful Lno.s).
I would also suggest that you look closely at the fin between the dorsal and tail fins as with a large number of loricariidae that fin is pointed or hooked in males and much more rounded in females(i'm unsure whether this holds true with L204's though). Good luck with them although i'd definately recommend a 6'x18"x18" as a minimum tank size for these as the fry do better with the parents and they do NEED very clean clear water to survive let alone to grow properly.
Rohan R

[apistomaster]

Rohan,

Perhaps you could show us some photos of these differences you speak of and of the L204 fry you obtained?
You frequently speak as if from your personal experience and success but I don't recall any first hand photo documentation in your posts.
Aqualog contains a few errors so more examples of your success and useful distinguishing sex differences would be more helpful as learning aids for the rest of us. Even some poor photos ought be worth at least 900 words.

[leej24]

Thanks all. I will do my best to do more research on these guys and provide them the best care I can afford for them. Currently, the biggest one is the only one occupying a cave while the other 3 hide among the driftwood. They will venture out to eat, but aside from that I don't see them at all. When they are moved to their new home I will inspect them better. I will take a closer look at their vents and the fin between the dorsal and the caudal fin. Yes, I know that may not be the best way of sexing them (the fin between the dorsal and caudal), but it would probably make me happier

I will stick with using the 55 gallon for them when it gets emptied.

Drpleco,

Are yours sexed?

[drpleco]

I'm only certain on the dominant male. I have another adult that I'm pretty sure is female, but won't know until I take the time to get him/her conditioned. I've kept him/her away from the male and still no spikes, so maybe it's a girl. The rest I got at 1.5" a year ago so they're not mature enough to sex.

[apistomaster]

I'm only certain on the dominant male. I have another adult that I'm pretty sure is female, but won't know until I take the time to get him/her conditioned. I've kept him/her away from the male and still no spikes, so maybe it's a girl. The rest I got at 1.5" a year ago so they're not mature enough to sex.

Hi DrGold,
I know that you are very experienced keeping and breeding the smaller L-numbers and we seem to have a similar problem when it comes to sexing L204. Fat subdominant males are not much different looking than gravid females. I juggled my adults for a long time before I finally decided to keep what appeared to be a trio yet they all turned out to be males. They were almost 5 inches TL. Large enough you would think it wouldn't be that hard to tell the difference. They were my most frustrating species to arrive at some breeders. If I had to do it all over again I think I would give 8 of them a 125 gal tank set up ala Havaard. Then let the fish sort it out.

[drpleco]

Right on - that's my current plan for these guys, but I'm hoping that they'll make it work in a 4ft tank.

A while back I traded a "pair" to a buddy that I was certain were male and female. Well, I was right, except that I had the sexes reversed. The spiky fish ended up being the female and the bald fish spiked up much later and turned out to be the male. Definitely frustrating fish, but if it were easy it wouldn't be any fun, right?

[apistomaster]

So, it's drpleco now,
Congrats on the degree.

Yeah, I think a 75 gal, 4 footer would be just fine.
Once I got rid of my L204 I decided to make L333 my largest species of Pleco I wish to breed. My largest tanks are for getting my wild Discus.
Moving one pair to it's own 29H this afternoon. I know I have one more pair and am thinking my chances are good for a 3rd.
It's easier to tell as I remove each of the currently most dominant pair. I have Nhamunda Blues. I think many Discus keepers are interested in getting wild fish but their high cost and the keepers' aren't all confident that they are up to tackling any wild caught fish. They are definitely more difficult to breed than domestics. One pair has bullied all the wild Peruvian Scalare I put in with them in a 75 to help the Discus get out of their funk. Now they are pushing away the 2 breeding pairs of Scalare away from the only spawning cone in the tank and beginning to clean it.

[drpleco]

So, it's drpleco now,
Congrats on the degree.

hey thanks! I used to keep just fancy goldfish, but now I'm a hardcore pleco guy. It's definitely nice to have fish that don't float or otherwise get sick all the time. As far as the dr, that's just my own pretentiousness shining through. Can't help it - wish I could.

Unfortunately my psychologist skills are useless for the fishkeeping, but the fishkeeping skills have definitely improved the psychologist end of things. Having them to play with has gone a long way to help manage stress. Of course, sometimes the fish are stress-inducing, like when trying to sex L204's.

To get back on topic - are any straight down, top-view shots available of the 'female?'

[leej24]

Here are two pictures I took on Sunday of the "female". They aren't that clear and I will take more when I move them. I also plan on putting some cory cats in there with them along with some Endler's Livebearers. Would this be okay? They don't eat other smaller fish, right? I also read that they might eat plants if I put plants in the tank. I have some java fern growing on some of my driftwood, so I am going to lose the java ferns if I put the driftwood in there with them. I'm sorry for such questions and I apologize if these questions have been answered elsewhere in this forum. I'm probably not doing a good job of looking for them.

[apistomaster]

Based on my vast and proven incompetence at sexing L204, I see 2 males.
Photo 2 appears to be a male feeling more dominant than the other at this time. Seems to have more bristles showing on the main pectoral fin spikes.

[leej24]

Both of the pictures are of the same fish. The second picture was taken about 15minutes after the first one when the sun started to set.

[MatsP]

So, I'd call the second fish a male.

--
Mats

[leej24]

Both pictures are of the same fish (the smaller of the two bigger ones ) so you guys are telling me the two biggest ones I have are males. Sounds good then.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Have you seen this post?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=23009

Janne was correct with his suggestions. Tank 1 subject 4 and tank 2 subject 2 are both females, the rest are males. Since then I have obtained two more females.

It has taken me a while to figure out what led to the suggestions but here is my thought on that. The shape of the fish from the leading edge of the ventral fin to the tail, is more rounded in the females. There are males there that have quite a girth (quite solid), but their girth is between the leading edge of the pectoral fin, and the leading edge of the ventral fin.

Have a look at the photos on my post above, and you will see what I mean. It seems rather obvious to me now??

I think that both of the fish you have posted are males. Your second one appears to have the same shape as Tank 1 Subjects 1 and 3 in the referenced post above which I thought were females at the time I made the enquiry.

Cheers

Geoff

[leej24]

Thanks krazyGeoff for that link,

I haven't seen it yet, but I've been looking at it since then and I am still very confused about their sex. I'm not planning on breeding them anytime soon, but I always do like to have both sexes when it comes to raising fish. They seem to be doing fine and don't fight at all. Thanks for the information.

Could I go off on looking at their vents? The article under Shane's World in the article by Janne stated that females have a more oval vent whereas males have a more blunt rounded vent.

[apistomaster]

Thanks krazyGeoff for that link,

I haven't seen it yet, but I've been looking at it since then and I am still very confused about their sex. I'm not planning on breeding them anytime soon, but I always do like to have both sexes when it comes to raising fish. They seem to be doing fine and don't fight at all. Thanks for the information.

Could I go off on looking at their vents? The article under Shane's World in the article by Janne stated that females have a more oval vent whereas males have a more blunt rounded vent.

I think they will only show you theirs' if you show them yours'.

[leej24]

LOL! Very funny!