TSN won't eat

[Ric Foster]

"HELP..." TSN won't eat. (has sunkin in tummy)

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Catfish expert needed. My TSN has not eaten for 2 weeks.

1. 110 gallon tank
2. API liquid test kit. Amonia 0, Nitrate 0, Nitrate 20, PH 7.2
3. freshwater
4. Established for 2 years
5. stock list - 24" Tire track eel, 14" TSN, 4" red ear slider turtle, 4 adult parrot fish, 5" female flowerhorn, 12" unknown black catfish .
6. all fish original to tank
7. 82 degrees farenheit
8. Never any live plants
9. A/C 110 for mechanical filtration, 7 day filter rinse. Large air driven sponge for biological filtration.
10. 15" airstone. 190gph powerhead for surface agitation.
11. No sunlight. 1 48" florescent tube on timer from 6pm - 12am (6 hrs)
12. 50% waterchange every sunday with substrate vacuming.
13. pollock chunks fed mon,wed & fri. these are grocery store bought. Chicken liver every 3 or 4 weeks as a treat.
14. The TSN is swimming against the current of the A/C 110 about 75% of the time. This is not usual behavior.
15. NO treatment of any kind yet.

I posted the pic so you can see his sunkin in tummy. Am I overly worried or is there a problem?



I posted the video so you can see the breathing. Does it look labored to you? Should I worry



Thanks in advance for any help guys

[MatsP]

It doesn't look particularly good.

The flayed gill-covers indicate nitrate poisoning. Have you double-checked your nitrate levels with a different (fresh!) test-kit [instead of going out buying a test-kit, take a sample to friendly LFS and have them double-check your measurement]. Nitrate tests are fairly well-known to "go off" in the sense that it shows lower than actual values.

TSN and other large Pimelodids are well known to react badly to higher nitrate levels.

--
Mats

[Ric Foster]

I'll take a sample to my lfs in the morning and get a NEW test.
Could that be why he won't eat?
Wouldn't a 50% water change every sunday be sufficient even if my test kit shows lower than is?

[MatsP]

To begin from the back: Certainly, nitrate levels may stop the fish from eating.


I wouldn't get a new test kit if LFS's test kit shows the same result (which is possible). That would be a waste of money.

As to 50% water changes being enough: It depends on the nitrate level in the water you put in, as well as how much it rises during the week. Where I live, I could never get 20 ppm nitrate in my tanks by water changes, as the nitrate in the tap-water is already 30+ ppm - so whether I change 10% or 100% of the water, it will be at least 35 ppm - hence I use RO water for my water changes on fish that require low nitrate levels. Now, I have no idea what the water is like where you live, so I can't say how much water changes you'd need to do to achieve 20 ppm.

And by the way, are you measuring the nitrate level just before a water-change, or just after? In either case, what is the difference in nitrate between "before" and "after" water change?

There may also be something else wrong, which may or may not be related to nitrate levels. But the gill covers curling outwards is a typical sign of high nitrate levels, and very common in this sort of fish.

Another possible scenario is that your biological filtration isn't coping and the ammonia produced by your two large catfishes as well as the other fairly large fishes in your tank overpowers the filter - you may find that the levels are fine at the time you sample the water, but if you measure at a different time in relation to feeding, you may find that there is ammonia/nitrite levels present in the water due to "the ammonia is not fully processed into nitrate yet". [The ideal solution here is a continuous logging of ammonia/nitrite levels, but such equipment is expensive]. Spikes of ammonia and/or nitrite can be quite off-putting for a lot of fishes.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

I agree with Mats, but also the dorsal & pectorals look damaged indication physical damage either self-inflicted or via a tankmate

Do you know or is there a pic of the unidentified black catfish?

[Ric Foster]

Ok, I took water sample to LFS today and results are the same as my test kit.
I typically get a reading of 40 before the water change and 20 after the water change.
My tap water is 0 nitrate. The LFS guy recomended dosing with prime daily till the nitrate is down.
I told him I dose with prime at every water change and he said to do it daily if the test reads 40 or more.
So for now I am going to do 50% water changes every day and dose with prime (2 capfulls) untill the nitrate is under control. I will rely more on the breathing rate of my TSN for an indication wheather this is working or not rather than just the readings of the test kit. Also I will try to feed him every day till he eats. I will let you guys know the moment he eats. I will try his usual Pollock chunks. If he won't eat this I will try chicken liver. If he wont eat liver I'll try nightcrawlers. I'll post a video of his breathing as soon as it is better. Thanks again for helping guys. I''ll keep you posted.

Here is a pic of bio filter. It is home made to get a very large size. The pipe is 1" and has 1/2" holes drilled on 4 sides every 1/2" all the way up the pipes 20" height. The sponge is open cell. The whole thing is air driven. I never clean it or rinse it. It has been established for 2 years.



"by Richard B on Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:56 pm

I agree with Mats, but also the dorsal & pectorals look damaged indication physical damage either self-inflicted or via a tankmate

Do you know or is there a pic of the unidentified black catfish?"

The fin damage must be self inflicted by brushing on rocks because there is no aggression in the tank.
Here is a pic of the unknown catfish. His body shape is like the TSN but with a shorter snout. He is all black with a red tail.

[Silurus]

Your unknown catfish is

Hemibagrus wyckioides

.

[Martin S]

Your unknown catfish is

Hemibagrus wyckioides

.

That was my initial instinct - not a fish to mix with anything (and I mean anything!) This is one fish that should not (not always, but in nearly all cases) be kept with any other fish. The compatability section of the Cat-elog page states:

Not compatible with other fishes due to its nasty disposition. Many claim that H. wyckioides is the most aggressive freshwater fish in the world. Given this fish's ability to bite, it is not even safe with tank mates too large to swallow since it will simply take bites out them.

I'd suggest this may be the cause of the damage.
I have to say, I'd be very surprised if your nitrate is zero out of the tap - if it is you are extremely lucky.
HTH
Martin

[MatsP]

Nitrate isn't that bad, and 20ppm is not by any means really high. But doing slightly bigger/more frequent water changes is definitely not a bad idea.

I think Southern California gets it's water from Oregon mainly, and neither Southern California, nor Oregon are highly agricultural areas in general, so I'd expect the nitrate level to be fairly low. It's here in Southern England than we have far too much farming on the bits of land that aren't tarmac or concrete, which leads to nitrate in the water.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

I should say also, that feeding MORE isn't going to help the nitrate levels at all. A bit of starvation is probably not going to hurt the fish - these fish do not eat every day when they are larger - when mature, they probably eat about once a week or two.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

A TSN & an asian RTC are not a good combination unless your tank is massive - & by this i mean 20x8 foot plus, preferably bigger still - if you haven't seen any aggression it doesn't mean it's not happening - i think the asian RTC is harassing the TSN after lights out.

[Ric Foster]

Your unknown catfish is

Hemibagrus wyckioides

.

Thank you.

Your unknown catfish is

Hemibagrus wyckioides

.

That was my initial instinct - not a fish to mix with anything (and I mean anything!) This is one fish that should not (not always, but in nearly all cases) be kept with any other fish. The compatability section of the Cat-elog page states:

Not compatible with other fishes due to its nasty disposition. Many claim that H. wyckioides is the most aggressive freshwater fish in the world. Given this fish's ability to bite, it is not even safe with tank mates too large to swallow since it will simply take bites out them.

I'd suggest this may be the cause of the damage.
I have to say, I'd be very surprised if your nitrate is zero out of the tap - if it is you are extremely lucky.HTH Martin

I will put the Hemibagrus wyckioides in a tank by himself today. My No3 test kit that I use on all my tanks says the tap water is 0ppm No3. I am in the mountains and am on well water.

I should say also, that feeding MORE isn't going to help the nitrate levels at all. A bit of starvation is probably not going to hurt the fish - these fish do not eat every day when they are larger - when mature, they probably eat about once a week or two. Mats

Well, getting the TSN to eat is my priority right now. He's only 14" still a baby I think. I usually feed him mon/wed/fri but for now I am trying to feed every day. I'll net out any leftovers. I have a RTC at about 2 feet that only eats every 2 weeks or so. He's in an 8' round indoor pond.

A TSN & an asian RTC are not a good combination unless your tank is massive - & by this i mean 20x8 foot plus, preferably bigger still - if you haven't seen any aggression it doesn't mean it's not happening - i think the asian RTC is harassing the TSN after lights out.

Asian RTC is the common name? He is a rescue. I will set up a tank for him all by himself today. Maybe the TSN is stressed from harrassment and won't eat? (37.4") = WOW. This guy is 2 years old and only 12" they must grow slowly.

[Bas Pels]

I should say also, that feeding MORE isn't going to help the nitrate levels at all. A bit of starvation is probably not going to hurt the fish - these fish do not eat every day when they are larger - when mature, they probably eat about once a week or two. Mats

Well, getting the TSN to eat is my priority right now. He's only 14" still a baby I think. I usually feed him mon/wed/fri but for now I am trying to feed every day. I'll net out any leftovers. I have a RTC at about 2 feet that only eats every 2 weeks or so. He's in an 8' round indoor pond.

Netting out leftovers would be far too little. As stated above, the water will be polluted, and that's why the fish will not eat - because it senses it will not be able to degest the meal

I 'd suggest you change 50 % of the water, and do the same the other days of the week. By sunday the water quality will have improved enough so that it will eat again

Further, perhaps a life prey - both to stimulate the hunting and to be certain it will not decay before eaten - might be a good idea - thursday or so

Obviously, a brightly colored prey has the advantage of easy control: as long as it swims around, the TSN has not eaten, and will not need any feeding. A 2 inch goldfish would suffice

[Ric Foster]

TSN still has not eaten. I got the Asain RTC out and into his own tank yesterday. I have been changing 50% water daily and can get the No3 down to 10 after a water change. I will go buy a couple of 2" goldfish later today and try that. Guys, let me ask this. Look again at the pic of my TSN in post #1. To me he looks emaciated. Is he in danger of starving to death? Thanks for all the help you guys are giving me.

[Silurus]

The problem with very emaciated fish is that they will starve to point where they refuse to eat. Death is then the only option.

I think a few more days of not eating means you can effectively write off the catfish.

[Ric Foster]

I got 5 two inch goldfish today for the TSN. He is looking better and more active but has not eaten yet. I think you guys were right about the Asain RTC harrassing the TSN. I got the No3 down to 5. I'm gonna give the TSN till sat morning and if he has not eaten yet I am going to force feed him. I am optimistic about the goldfish though. We'll see.

[MatsP]

I doubt very much that force-feeding the fish is beneficial. I have heard of people having success doing that, but I've also heard of it making the fish more stressed and end up with it still not eating and eventually a dead fish.

--
Mats

[Ric Foster]

TSN died. 07-04-09
Can someone identify the problem with the gill material. I never seen this till I was inspecting the dead body. I am sure this is the cause of death. 50% of the gill material is eaten away and black.

[Silurus]

It looks like the end result of gill hyperplasia from ammonia poisoning.

[Bas Pels]

amonia poisening - thus the produced ammonia did not even get worked into nitrite, let alone nitrate

[L number Banana]

Wow, sorry to hear about your TSN

I guess it's a reminder to us all to keep up with those water tests. He was quite a beautiful fish.

Hope the other fish are doing well and best of luck with the rescued Red Tail.

[Ric Foster]

Guys I have a hard time with the ammonia theory. I have never gotten a reading above zero on ammonia. (except when cycling 2 years ago) Even when I first started this thread it was suggested to take a water sample to LFS to double check, and the test results were the same as mine on Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and PH. Also I always use Seachem Prime at every water change on sundays. I also have a custom made Bio filter to obtain a very large area for the beneficial bacteria that has been established for 2 years.

Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

I have a prized spiny eel in the tank that the TSN died from. If there is something in the tank that could kill him I want to correct it asap. I keep many tanks (600gal indoor pond, 125, 110, 110, 100, 60, 60, 29, 29 and a 20 gal) and have never had a mysterious death. I am always willing to learn from those with more experience than I. Can anyone think of a possible cause that is different from what has been suggested so far?

[MatsP]

Possibly the problem is in the form of spikes of ammonia - this is not at all unusual in tanks with high-level predators, as a lot of ammonia may be produced in relatively short time (high protein diet -> high ammonia waste).

--
Mats

[Proteus]

Curious if you checked the other inhabitants in that tank's gills?
sorry about your loss

[Ric Foster]

Curious if you checked the other inhabitants in that tank's gills?
sorry about your loss

I have watched the inhabitants closely and no one in the tank is breathing hard, but I have not yet removed them to inspect their gills. I will do this in the next few days. I will get photos of their gills and post.