Need help stocking tank, please--cats only

[moonbunny]

Hello everyone!

(I tried postingyesterday, big, descriptive thing, but I must've done something wrong b/c although it looked o.k., seemed to go through o.k., I don't see it anywhere...oh, I hope I didn't forget to hit "submit" after previewing...oh, well )

So, long story short

I'm down to just one catfish, my bn pleco Minnie (her "sister fish" passed of natural causes a week ago, the same with my last surviving oto, Klaus, over a month ago.) So, no diseases in a very clean fishtank, it's just at a loss for fish and Minnie could really use some friends *soon* b/c she's not herself--she's mopey and shy.

The setup: Minnie's in a 20L (that's roughly 16.5 gal. water capacity,) heater, Aquaclear 70 set to "_" or "gentle". The quarantine tank for whatever *new* fish will also be a 20L (same deal with the heater, same temp, same filter, same setting.) Once quarantine's over (2-4 wks) everyone will enjoy an expansion: a 10 gal. tank (independant heater and filter) will be connected via waterbridge for approx. 26.5 gallons of water and the benefit of them having another "room" to swim to for fun or should they just need a little quiet time or "me" time (I haven't room to waterbridge both 20s)

The questions: Who to stock with and how many, comfortably, would enjoy the setup? At the fish/pet store yesterday I realized I'm fully, one-milion percent heart-committed to catfish (I couldn't have imagined such an encompassing passion )--so, I'd really like to stick with catfish. The plecos (Minnie andher just-passed tankmate, Ish, shared 2 otos over 5 years that they loved and treated half as "kids" and half as "pet fish",) so a small shoal of otos might work out well...but how many? I'm pretty certain I'd like at least one more bristlenose pleco,for sure, so that Minnie has an equal and someone to relate to. Also, I saw upside-down catfish the other day (Asian, I'd say, judging by size) and they seemed sweet, fun and interesting. My mind's not *totally* closed to non-catfish, but my heart's kind of leaning that way My primary goal is: Make Minnie Happy...then me,lol. (So if it ended up being: Minnie, another bn pleco, a shoal of otos and say...a betta, that would be alright, too. Or inexpensive, long-lived nano fish.) One thing I really miss from having livebearers (but none again, their lives are too short and deaths always seem *much* too painful) is seeing them grow from being fry into these big, loveable fish that you get to share more of their lives with, or at least as much as *absolutely* possible.

My *freakishly* ideal situation would be to:

Figure out which fish and start the quarantine as soon as possible
Have all peaceful fish and Minnie makes fast friends all around

(Although buying's not a problem...)

I'd like to avoid buying via mail (it's wickedly hot here in AZ--car temps reach the 170's in 15 or 20 minutes, so a mail truck or box would be almost certain death or injury.)
I'd love to adopt fish who *need* homes, fish who need to be "re-homed" or are loosing their homes for some reason--second chance fish (If that's not possible, then pet/fish store fish they'll be.)
Get/Find/Adopt Long-lived fish

So please advise soon, who Minnie should have as tankmates (asap for her sake. Their lives are short, so the highest possible quality of life in that time is super important.)

In kindness and hopeful anticipation of quick replies!
moonbunny

[MatsP]

Let's get one thing clear: I have a bristlenose that I've had for more than 5 years (I had it for a few months before joining this forum) and I would be sad and surprised if it passed away anytime within the next few years - I'd expect a lifespan of about 10-15 years. They are indeed not short-lived species - unless by long-lived you are referring to Red Tail Catfish and such, that can live for 50 or more years with adequate care.

As for suitable companions, I'd suggest

Corydoras

as one option. They are relatively easy going, and with the right choice for your tank temperature, you should be able to keep them happy for a long time.

But there are SO many catfish species that it is very difficult to suggest. And just like some people like big flowers on their curtains, and others like dark plain colours, and some people just want to keep the sun out, so put black plastic rubbish bags across the window. The same applies with fish - someones LOVELY fish isn't what someone else thinks as a "great" fish.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

if you love otos, then go for some more, but be careful to obtain healthy stock as some are in poor condition in stores.

Corys are a good option too, selection dependant upon price & availability - a group of 6 corys or otos would be great but do take personal preference into consideration - if you see something you like the look of - ask here & you'll get good advice.

Another BN would be ok but do you know if Minnie is M or F? 2 males may well scrapp all day long without adequate territory, 2 females should be better, but one of each could lead you to becoming a parent to hundreds of young & good as it is to begin with suddenly becomes a bit of a problem..........(eh Mats? I'm on my third lot now )

[Carp37]

Hi Moonbunny-
Mats makes some good points and suggestions in his post. However, I'm not too sure about corys and bristlenose in a small tank- I have mixed them in the past, but found male bristlenose to be quite aggressive bullies to anything they think they can spook at feeding time- I had to move my male from my shoal of Brochis and Corydoras sterbai as they'd always got split fins from being pounced on by the male bristlenose (females seem quite a bit less aggressive), but his four of his sons and daughters (which are now big enough to breed) are now in with the Brochis without the same problems (at least so far), possibly because they spend more time squabbling with each other, and possibly because they're in a 35 gallon rather than 23 gallon (UK) tank- maybe the extra space helps. I didn't lose any corys or Brochis due to the bristlenose so from that point of view they can be mixed, but the corys/Brochis always seemed a lot more nervous than otherwise.

If you do go for corys, make sure there are enough of them that any bullying gets shared round them.

[moonbunny]

Hi there, everyone : ) Thanks for writing

Sorry about the delay, though (our pup had surgery to remove a mass in her leg--luckily completely benign : )--but "kid" has had a few complications in the last week or so...plus she can't sleep on her big bed upstairs (so it's downstairs, now, we sleep) and she's not to walk around too much, so chairs draped with sheets demark her boundries and...so it's kind of like a chaotic Bedouin camp, only not as beautiful! : ) The E-collar turned out to be *way* too disorientating for her, so now it's an inflatable "donut" looking device she wears, stitches turned to staples and makeshift medicine charts are up on the kitchen cupboards. So please excuse the delay, life's been upside down, but she's healing and she's happy--she's doted on and has adopted a tiny fan near her bedside (a hide-away mattress pulled onto the floor.) Everyone here feels a bit like the waking dead, but *her* tail's wagging, so something must be right

MatsP--Thanks for your caring reply. When I got the 2 fish, Ish and Minnie, they were in every sense a mystery. A generous and kind friend said she had a "bumper crop" in her amazing 100 gal. tank and although she declined money for the adoption, thankfully she accepted a ton of quad-fudgy brownies for the 2 little souls I'd bring home : ) The "kids" were 2 or 3 inches already (having no experience with estimating ages on bn plecos, I just watched their faces as the days went by, watching to see whether big or little whiskers would sprout.) They grew quickly and it seems like in less than a year their sizes maxed out. So, true, I've only had them about 5 years, but I really don't know how old they were when I brought them home. Now, today I went to Phoenix Tropical and saw some truly tiny plecos, albino's only--they were about 1/2", maybe a smidge more. The gent running the store couldn't quite give a firm idea as to their age, so there was a guess at maybe a month-old : ) Then again, he showed me some beautiful rubber-mouthed plecos that he felt might top out at about 4" (I've read a bit tonight that suggests they might top out around 7"...so, it's all a learning curve.) Like the dog, the fish are doted on and cared for excessively well (probably even to my own detriment, lol)--it's my joy seeing them healthy, happy and well in all ways! Truly, I'd planned for 15 long years of life, too. But if my own life/health's any kind of example, perhaps we've more guidelines where fish lifespans are concerned rather than absolutes. Who really knows? As you say, there are *so* many fish : ) , fortunately I just stumbled on this Planet Catfish link that promises to be a HUGE help : ) : http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/se ... results=50 All I'm certain of, so far, I'm gobsmacked by the love I have bn plecos--from their pink/blue/white/brown bellies to their amazingly expressive eyes and shy natures ((Thanks, MatsP)) (p.s. MatsP, I just had a look at your photo gallery--So beautiful! If anyone ever has a reason to wonder why and how beautiful fantastic cats like your's are, they need only look at the bristles, the spots and those eyes!)

Hi Richard B : )

The choice arlready (silly to say, but true) is kind of exhausting, lol! I've probably made five "absolutely certain" choices only to rule wipe the slate clean a bit with today's fish store stop Isn't that normal, though? They're between shipments with a new lot coming in next week...in the meantime (a very short meantime, they were getting ready to close) I was shown a host of wonders! Of course, full-sized corys, both bronze and albino, then full-sized plecos, the hadn't any otos today, just one gold nugget pleco, maybe 5-7 *tiny* albino bn plecos (1/2" or so) and these beautiful little rubber-lipped plecos (about 1.5".) I went in thinking, "O.k., since I'm expanding a bit, 2 *tiny* bn plecos (so Minnie wouldn't be too intimidated,) then maybe a "herd" of otos or a mixed lot of otos and corys. I left the fish store thinking, "Oh! I't just plecos for me, 100%! And those rubber-lipped ones? Maybe 1-2 mini-Minnie's and a couple rubber-lippeds and a male betta? It's tought though. Otos have the benefit of being such a tiny bio load--small enough to have a shoal comfortably...but, then again, those little ones are so much like canaries in coal mines as much as the hardships they face in transit to stores. I've been lucky enough to have a few otos last a good 5 years, others, the dear ones, haven't been as lucky and have maybe shared a year or just a few months here at home. Corys really do live up to their armored names, lol! How can it be they're so robust, so comical and sociable with all kinds of tropical fish? They're still a bit consideration, though (esp. as the weather here in AZ has become pretty prohibitive for ordering adopted fish by mail--we've been in the +100s on and off for the last month or so.) I'm smitten with the bronze and peppered varieties : ) I'm 99.99% sure Minnie's a female--she's notoriously camera shy, but I'll try to post a photo soon (she'll need cleaned in a few days again.)

Hi Carp37 (*love* the name!)

Thanks *immensely* for the heads-up on mixing corys and bn plecos! I have seen the fish take turns sleeping in the food bowl just to get the first bites, and, yeah, I definitely don't wan't anybody having to face such stress on a daily basis. Ish and Min had unusual relationships with tiny fish--they sort of "parent-ed" them and Ish took to oto Nila then Minnie to Klaus, but...they did kind of get this, "So when are they going to grow up big?" sense about them, and that's usually when I'd take the time to make sure each fish got a different kind of food at a different time so everyone was fed equally well (as well as a non-fish maybe could provide : ) ) I don't want Minnie to feel estranged in any way (should she be the only bn pleco, esp. of that size, in the tank system,) but my mind and heart is fully open, guys, to the best combo possible--a happy tank *any day* over a tank that's just pretty Function over Form : )

Hey, it *might* be come comfort to hear about the progress I'm making on the waterbridge addition... : ) Tiki cup tunnels and decor! Like it? So, a bit of a twist from naturalism : )

Well, I have to go for the night. Thank you guys--hope to hear from you all again soon as I'm *thinking* I might need your knowlege more than just the whims of my heart, lol, it's so true! : )

'Night!

[MatsP]

Hope your dog gets better.

As to the "big choice", I'd say that a lot of the fish in the Cat-eLog Search you did are quite difficult to find. If you sort by hits instead of size, you get a "likely to be found in shops" listing, rather than a list of "biggest to smallest".

Rubberlip plecos are not hard to find, but they can be a bit sensitive - the generally like cooler water than the average pleco, and like really fast flowing water.

You don't state where in the USA you live - it's a big place, so it would make sense to know where (at least as to which state, but where in a big state may be helpful too). This is helpful for a number of reasons:
1. Someone may be able to recommend a local shop if someone else is living in the same area.
2. The water conditions where you live (it's pretty easy to find a US map showing hardness level in the water for example) may suit one type of fish better than another - if you live in an area with really hard water, you should stay away from fish that require really soft water, for example.
3. The climate where you live may also help give useful suggestions - if you live in Arizona [which is possible, given the name of the shop you went to, but also quite possible that it's called Phoenix for a different reason], choosing a fish that prefers the low 70's F as a tank temperature is perhaps not the best choice, where if you live in San Francisco, that would work quite well [but maybe not in San Jose, a few dozen miles away].

Edit: You can change the "location" field in the User Control Panel, top left of the page (second row of text under the "three random catfish drawings").

--
Mats

[moonbunny]

Hi MatsP : )

Thank you so much for writing back and for caring!

My pup (well, she's 8 years old,) has given everyone a run for their money, lol. First her disolving stitches disolved too fast, so the gory, raw 5" hole had to be medically stapled and bandaged at her dr's office. A day and a night later I looked at her bandaged foot and it was twice the size of her other back leg (the bandage had become an unintentional tourniquet,) so off it came as fast as possible while my poor girl winced until it was totally off. She's been wearing the inflatable donut-style collar, but while I was at the dentist last Friday having fillings, someone at home took the collar off...big mistake. I came home, face all numb, lol, and asked, "Where's the dog?" No one knew, but...once we found her she'd chewed out and swallowed *every* staple, well over 20 of them. So we got out the biggest, most powerful magnet we have around, scanning anywhere she'd been--none to be found. So off to the after hours ER vet who promised they'll pass (he patched her up with some fancy stitching, reverse knots, bandaged her leg properly from hip to toes and knocked her out enough for a day or two of rest--just keep it dry, he said. Despite the pain medicine, the antibiotics, etc. she's just terrified and freaks out if more than 2 people are gone for too long (this only manifested after the surgery.) Last night she freaked out a little, knocked over her water bowl and got her bandage wet, so back to the vet for a re-wrap and tranquilizers : ) She's my kid, I love her, but is it any wonder, MatsP, why I'm here at Planet Catfish, lol ?

What do you think about just re-stocking the 20 L, lightly, around Minnie? Cats seem so sociable among their own, although shy. I'm exceptionally open to suggestions, should you have any : ) Do you think the water params (see below) are too hard on otos? Do you think it has a psychological impact on a fish like Minnie, should she be the only bn pleco in the tank? The only thing I'm really certain of is I don't want her to have to be alone, she's too good of a fish : )

I thank you for your tip on the rubber-nosed plecos (that makes one thing simpler : ) ) And next to answer your questions...

Location: You're spot on : ) I live in a suburb of Phoenix, Arizona (East valley)--from the windows we can see the Superstition mountains, Four Peaks and Red Mountain (having grown up less than 5 minutes from a river in Michigan, all the pretty mountains in the world, all the jack rabbits, hummingbirds, quail, etc. just don't balance out the black widows and scorpions...it's their season : ) ) Phoenix Tropical is considered the best local indie fish store, at least by the folks living in the area who also hang out at Badmans site and they get in pretty regular small batches of fish (so, that's one over the chains.) Also, they're the only ones in the area with bristlenose plecos.

Water conditions: Liquid rock Hard water and pH that's a smidge above neutral (we've TONS, mountains, of limestone here, having, prehistorically, been underwater, then tropical, then the desert sands of today--and a crazy range of fossils!) It jibes pretty well with the waters of the Amazon or Central American biotopes.

Climate: While weathermen start cheerfully gloating that we've hit the "century mark" in April and stay between 100 and 120 through October (despite these magnificent haboob sand storms and following monsoon rains)... : ) the house stays cool enough that the tank's heated year-round. Health concerns, like RA, have their upsides : ) Daytime temps are 80-78 deg. F and I just set the temp to 74 to sleep. So any weather will do

(For future ease, I'll reset the location tonight. Thanks : ) )

Looking forward to your suggestions,
Moonbunny

[MatsP]

My friend that I went to see that time lives in Chandler, which is at least the same side of Phoenix as you are.

Independent small shops are a great thing to have. Here in the UK, the chains aren't as much "everywhere" as they appear to be in the US, and the biggest aquatics chain is Maidenhead Aquatics, which is a decent company, but they are still a big company, so the shop manager or below have little to say about how the business is being run.

Hard water isn't too bad - it's difficult if you want to keep really exotic species, but many of the more common species are perfectly fine with hard water. The common bristlenose

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

definitely seems to be very happy with harder water conditions. And they work reasonably well in a group. If you have more than one male in a small tank, they may fight a bit over "mating rights", but adding one male will not be a problem (except you may have lots of babies!)

Central America is to a large extent hard water, so that is a better match. Unfortunately, there aren't any commonly available catfishes from Central America - those that turn up from time to time are nearly always growing too big for a smallish tank.

The Amazon is soft in general, there are a few exceptions in the Peru part of the Amazon drainage, but if we average the pH and hardness of all of it, it's quite soft and pH below neutral by a fair bit. That's not to say many species of fish from that region can't be kept in higher pH and hardness!

I'm still not quite sure what you'd like to see in your tank. There are so many fish that COULD work. But if you want to get one more bristlenose, that would work just fine.

And again, best wishes for the recuperation of your pup. I know the feeling.

--
Mats