Creating a offline Planetcatfish

[quatermass]

Hi Julian,

Ever thought about creating a offline version of your site?

There is now free packages that run Apache, mysql, php, etc. all from a USB stick or your local drive.
These allow you to view the site via a web browser as if you're getting it off the Internet.

I've managed to get the site - http://theaquariumwiki.com/ offline (I'm co-admin) and it's popular at aquarium clubs for discussing items or perhaps for taking via a netBook into a shop to help iD fish on sale.

As the site is offline, it of course doesn't need Internet access so this saves on 3G Internet costs if you're out and about. So maybe Shops would like to use it too?

With netBooks costing only a a couple of hundred quid, it could prove to be a popular reference tool for 21st Century Aquarists?

Comments?

[MatsP]

It's been suggested in various forms several times. The main stumbling block is that in general is that Jools have permission to put the photos on the web-site, not to publish them for distribution. Whilst I'm sure that most of the regular members here would not mind at all, those who are professionals, such as Johnny Jensen, who has provided 1192 pictures - only about 150 less than Jools and Silurus together. And there are several others who have submitted one, half a dozen or two dozen pictures - it would be quite a lot of hard work to go through the list of 8-900 providers of pictures/articles and ask them individually if they will permit the photo/article to be published on a CD-ROM, memory stick or whatever.

It is not that difficult to get mobile broadband (3G) in most areas of this planet. If you want to discuss a particular article or such, there's always the possibility of printing/saving it to file.

--
Mats

[quatermass]

But when you view an image off the Internet, you are in fact distributing it aren't you?

In any case it's easy for a web admin to do a mass email to all its members and for it to be known there is going to be a condition change and people have to opt-out if they object.

I tried to find a 'terms and conditions' for visiting the site and what I'm legally entitled to do and I can't find any.

Sure the forum may have terms, but not the main site as far as I can see.
It can't be a copyright issue as anyone wanting an image can just go online and get it.


As far as 'getting 3G', you're forgetting that many people or shops are either technically unable to get it or are unwilling to pay a hourlyor daily rate. There is a credit crunch going on.... ;)

If I wanted a particular page, I can off course use a site copier which could duplicate the entire site or a single page and put it onto a PDF. But it would lose the ability to use the sites own search function. Which is why people don't do it.

Software and offline storage is now available to easily allow people to have a site offline. So why not offer it?

Fishbase tried to offer a CDROM back in 2004. But it soon gets out of date and needed special software and someone to maintain it. A more recent edition is not offered. Hardly surprising.

A simple copy of the website gets around all of this as apart from removing sensitive bits like users names/passwords, etc. (something that is done via a simple script into mysql by the Admin) it needs very little work to reissue it month after month.

A simple bit torrent share would get over any distribution costs.

Heck I bet PFK or other magazines may help out with giving a DVD away with their magazine?

[MatsP]

But when you view an image off the Internet, you are in fact distributing it aren't you?

But only for the purpose of viewing in a web-site - not distributing it in any other form - see below.

In any case it's easy for a web admin to do a mass email to all its members and for it to be known there is going to be a condition change and people have to opt-out if they object.

And what do you do if the biggest commercial contributor opts out? Remove those pictures?
This is the list of pictures solely by Johnny Jensen. He, as I said, makes a living by selling copies of his photos to aquarium books, magazines and such. He is unlikely to agree to change of conditions for his photos, in my opinion. I can see how other big contributors that have a commercial interest of some sort may also object to such a change of terms - if nothing else because it's a change of the originally agreed terms and as such an unknown.

I tried to find a 'terms and conditions' for visiting the site and what I'm legally entitled to do and I can't find any.

All material, on the web or otherwise, is by law copyrighted to the author (ok, so the law varies from country to country, and in rare cases, there is no such law). In case of Planet Catfish, it belongs to Jools.

Sure the forum may have terms, but not the main site as far as I can see.
It can't be a copyright issue as anyone wanting an image can just go online and get it.

That's not even true - images are copyrighted on the web, just like they are in a book or elsewhere. It may be TECHNICALLY possible to copy the image, but that certainly doesn't make it legal. And yes, it's a copyright issue.

If you go to a professional photographer and ask him/her to take your portrait and end up buying a copy of it to be framed and hang on your livingroom wall, then you still haven't got the right for example to put that picture on the cover of a CD when you become a famous rock-star - because the agreed usage that you purchased the photo under is not covering that use.

As far as 'getting 3G', you're forgetting that many people or shops are either technically unable to get it or are unwilling to pay a hourlyor daily rate. There is a credit crunch going on.... ;)

Granted - but it's not THAT expensive...

It is not a technical issue (aside from any copy you make obviously DOES get out of date - that's the big advantage of a web-site as opposed to any "permanent media".

None of these problems are completely impossible to solve - far from it - but it is a question of what is most important and with limited time to work on the site, what is the best amount of time spent.

I'll leave it to Jools to explain further, if needed. As I said, it's been discussed before, and I'm simply trying to convey the difficulties that was discussed last time.

--
Mats

[grokefish]

I think I am missing the exact point of this?

Matt

[MatsP]

quatermass would like to be able to run the entire PlanetCatfish site without having access to the web - which is entirely doable if you distribute a local web-server with relevant plug-ins (such as PHP) and tools (mySQL etc) and all associated files (that is the images and data-sources). However, there are legal problems as described above.

--
Mats

[quatermass]

But only for the purpose of viewing in a web-site - not distributing it in any other form - see below.

But surely that is 100% what an offline web site is doing?
From my point of view there is no difference from having a text or image file in a temp or cache folder of a web browser or in a folder on the users desktop. The viewer is still viewing it and still using it in the same manner. I mean what is the difference? The length of time a viewer has the files on their computer?

And what do you do if the biggest commercial contributor opts out? Remove those pictures?
<cut..>
in my opinion. I can see how other big contributors that have a commercial interest of some sort may also object to such a change of terms - if nothing else because it's a change of the originally agreed terms and as such an unknown.

I don't see why they should mind? There is no difference from viewing a picture on web site connected to the Internet and one that is not. There is 100% no commercial difference to authors who sell their photos.
Indeed you could view it as an extra avenue.

All material, on the web or otherwise, is by law copyrighted to the author (ok, so the law varies from country to country, and in rare cases, there is no such law). In case of Planet Catfish, it belongs to Jools.

Yes of course.

That's not even true - images are copyrighted on the web, just like they are in a book or elsewhere. It may be TECHNICALLY possible to copy the image, but that certainly doesn't make it legal. And yes, it's a copyright issue.

Sure. But a copyright owner can allow publication in many different ways.

Granted - but it's not THAT expensive...
It is not a technical issue (aside from any copy you make obviously DOES get out of date - that's the big advantage of a web-site as opposed to any "permanent media".
<cut>
I'll leave it to Jools to explain further, if needed. As I said, it's been discussed before, and I'm simply trying to convey the difficulties that was discussed last time.

True. But the state of play with technology atm, is that it is possible but mobile access to information is currently expensive to a lot of people.
No doubt in 5 years time, it'll be a lot cheaper to go online and stand on a street to access information.

When I recently demo'd my site offline a lot of people were very interested in how to use this technology and names like Fishbase and Planetcatfish came up. I was just wondering how Planetcatfish felt about it.

[Jools]

Sorry, but I still don't see the value in an offline Planet. Perhaps an offline catelog and the various articles sections might be useful, but no forum, my cats or anything people interact with? Anyway, most people can get it all on their phone anyway - I'd be much more minded to develop mobile friendly content than an offline thing. And running a web server off a CD is not an easy thing either. It'd be out of date before the CD stopped spinning.

I've not met a recent netbook that can't go online - so I don't see that as an angle either.

It comes to down to money, we don't get any revenue from advertising offline and we would have serious costs in producing an offline version.

So, I am going to moved this into resolved, but I am happy to continue discussing the ins and outs.

Jools

[Jools]

A simple copy of the website gets around all of this as apart from removing sensitive bits like users names/passwords, etc. (something that is done via a simple script into mysql by the Admin) it needs very little work to reissue it month after month.

A simple bit torrent share would get over any distribution costs.

Heck I bet PFK or other magazines may help out with giving a DVD away with their magazine?

Sorry, but this is nonsense! The "simple script" is around 7-10 days solid work. A bit torrent share wouldn't distribute the runtime environment would it? PFK are not interested although I can't speak for other publications.

Jools

[Jools]

But when you view an image off the Internet, you are in fact distributing it aren't you?

No, you are viewing it. Distribution in this context means making another copy of it outside of it's intended use as part of the planet site.

Jools

[Jools]

Software and offline storage is now available to easily allow people to have a site offline. So why not offer it?

I am interesting in this as I must be missing something here. What software specifically?

Jools

[grokefish]

I think I am missing the exact point of this?

Matt

[quatermass]

Software and offline storage is now available to easily allow people to have a site offline. So why not offer it?

I am interesting in this as I must be missing something here. What software specifically?

Jools

http://www.chsoftware.net/en/useware/mowes/mowes.htm

[Jools]

Ah, OK, thanks. So it does look like I was wrong about the bit torrent share and what I said about it above.

Jools

[Jools]

I think I am missing the exact point of this?

Offline access to an outdated version of Planet. Which, in summary, isn't worth the amount of effort it would take to make as the majority can always access it online anyway.

Jools