What plecos for a 75g tank with EB JD's?

[teqvet]

I'm looking at setting up a 75 gallon tank, currently finishing up cycling, with an electric blue jack dempsey pair and want to finish off the tank around them. They are much more mild mannered than the regular jack dempsey, in some cases folks I know have said they are not aggressive at all, but I understand my mileage may vary. A school of 8-10 serpae's for a dither fish up top.. and was possibly thinking about yoyo loaches for entertainment purposes, Not sure yet.

This tank is going to be a show tank in our bedroom, which is where we spend a lot of time these days, getting away from our younger children, when we can They are 1.5 and 6 and attached to the hip so when we get free time we like to sit with each other and getting this tank setup will give me an excuse to get her off the tv and watching a movie with me and let us spend more time together. So while this tank is something I like to do, I do have ulterior motives!

I would like to know what types of plecos would be good looking and fun to watch in a tank of this size. The tank itself is 48"L x 18"W x 20"H. Plan on having a emp 400 and magnum 350 canister with a UV sterilizer attached.

I was thinking of Imperial Plecos as my LFS has some for roughly $30 and they'll hold them for me if I want them until I have the tank fully ready for them. I'd love some input on them and various other good looking plecos as well, thanks

[MatsP]

Imperial pleco is probably this:

Pterygoplichthys punctatus

They grow a bit on the large side for a 75g tank, in my opinion.

I'm not sure how large EB JD's grow to, but regular JD's I got the impression can grow to nearly a foot long, so not really suitable for this size of tank either.

A 75g tank is a great size for fishes up to about 8-9" maximum - but both these fishes are very a bit beyond that limit, and I'd rather stay with fishes that keep themselves BELOW the maximum size, rather than risking going beyond it. Also bear in mind that fishes that are that large, even if you haven't got that many, it is definitely a good idea to have GOOD filtration.

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Mats

[teqvet]

Most JD's I've read about, and talked to JD owners are about generally stay 8-10".. 12" is something common to see in the wild, not so much in aquaria (again only what I have read. The EBJD's seem to average about 8" with females at around 6-7". The tank will have 10x filtration, and most of my tanks are 10x+ filtration.. is that not good filtration?

That Pleco does not look like the one the LFS has either. It is smallish, and the owner said they get to about 6" max. It's a black/white fish, like a zebra but not the same from what I understood? They had them before for 50$ 6 months ago and I missed out then. He has an order in now that have been there a few weeks and he got quite low on price, so the price is lower now, than the ones he had at $50 back then. The lines on the pleco aren't as 'broad' as the zebra pleco, they are much more thinner lines. I think I saw a picture of a King Pleco? that looked more similar to this fish I am talking of. I will try to find it.


This is it!!!



That's what it looks like.

[MatsP]

As to the "max size of fish", that's one that we often have to debate here (and I'm sure in other places). But JD's aren't just "long", but also quite chunky, so I'd still say that they are probably on the large side for that tank - even if they max out at 8".

Well, searching the Common name list, I only found one species with the name "imperial" in the name - but as you probably know, common names are not regulated or controlled in any way, shape or form, so one person selling fish A as Imperial Pleco does not have to sell AT ALL the same species as the second person using that name. Scientific names are the only sensible way to determine what the fish REALLY is - and that of course assumes that the CORRECT scientific name is used (and that it is scientifically described in the first place).

The fish in the picture should stay within a size suitable for a 75g tank. However, it is not a suitable companion for a JD - not so much for the JD's size or temper, although that would be a small concern, but rather because the water conditions that JD's like (being central american species) is hard, alkaline water with a pH around 7.5-8 that doesn't get TOO hot (around mid 20'C/75'F). Almost all fancy plecos, and particularly stripey black-and-white ones are from South America, which likes soft, acidic water around pH 6.5 or lower, and WARM, around 28-30'C/roughly 90'F. Trying to keep both in the same tank will end in one feeling great and one feeling poorly, or both being borderline to happy.

The larger "common-like" species are very adaptable to pH and temperature. The small, exotic species are less adaptable to temperature at least.

10x filtration meaning 10x turnover, or a filter designed for 750g tank on a 75g tank? The former is no guarantee for GOOD filtration, the latter seems a bit overkill. On my 100g(rouglh - 400l) tank, I have two filters designed for up to 150g tanks, and another circulation pump - the flow is around 10x the volume per hour - and two mid-size air-pumps with suitable air-stones to keep the water moving around nicely.

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Mats

[Psy]

Most people are keeping pairs in 55s (2 EBs can't breed so one is always a normal phenotype). They're more of an ambush type fish, rather than a swimmy type fish. A 75 is a good size water wise though because these are surprisingly sensitive fish. They've certainly lost some vigor compared to the regular Jack Dempsey. Mats, wanting a better stocking situation is fine, but what you've done is categorically rule out fish over 9 inches. Thats fine, but now once you're presented evidence that the fish do not exceed that length you mention how they're too chunky (not part of your original rule) but Dempseys are some of the more elongate American Cichlids, and more so than most catfish.

You are right about the plecos though (thats why we come here!). More so than any other CA cichlid, these EB Dempseys are sensitive, and will not like to be too far out of their range. You'll need to treat them almost as dwarf cichlids in regard to following their water requirements and bullying. Most people do ok with Bristlenose types, but I don't know any fancy types that you'd really like.

[teqvet]

Alot of EB keepers I talk to have had gold nugget plecos and they both seem to thrive in the tank kept at 78*. The water kept in that range to keep the fishs metabolism up in hopes of keeping the immune system boosted. The pH parameters for the jack are between 6.5-8.0 due the amount of breeding in the trade these days. I think most JD keepers keep their tanks somewhere around 7.0+/- a bit.

I'll just continue to search for available catfish/plecos that match the same parameters as them.

[MatsP]

Most people are keeping pairs in 55s (2 EBs can't breed so one is always a normal phenotype). They're more of an ambush type fish, rather than a swimmy type fish. A 75 is a good size water wise though because these are surprisingly sensitive fish. They've certainly lost some vigor compared to the regular Jack Dempsey. Mats, wanting a better stocking situation is fine, but what you've done is categorically rule out fish over 9 inches. Thats fine, but now once you're presented evidence that the fish do not exceed that length you mention how they're too chunky (not part of your original rule) but Dempseys are some of the more elongate American c*****ds, and more so than most catfish.

And of course, fishbase is wrong in how long these grow, as it states 10" (25 cm). And don't tell me that "they grow smaller in captivity" - if that is the case, then it's probably because they are not kept right.

You are right about the plecos though (thats why we come here!). More so than any other CA c*****d, these EB Dempseys are sensitive, and will not like to be too far out of their range. You'll need to treat them almost as dwarf c*****ds in regard to following their water requirements and bullying. Most people do ok with Bristlenose types, but I don't know any fancy types that you'd really like.

There are certainly plecos that can be kept with almost any kind of other fish - I have a Common pleco

Pterogoplichthys pardalis

that lives with a bunch of Malawi cichlids in rather hard, alkaline water. The tank is (admittedly) too small for this fish, and I'm not following my own advice - however, it is a fish that I "rescued" from a tank with even smaller base-area [although it was about 30" tall] along with the Malawi's.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

Alot of EB keepers I talk to have had gold nugget plecos and they both seem to thrive in the tank kept at 78*. The water kept in that range to keep the fishs metabolism up in hopes of keeping the immune system boosted. The pH parameters for the jack are between 6.5-8.0 due the amount of breeding in the trade these days. I think most JD keepers keep their tanks somewhere around 7.0+/- a bit.

I'll just continue to search for available catfish/plecos that match the same parameters as them.

78'F is on the low side for gold nuggets - it would perhaps work if it's a well established fish, and it gets plenty of food.

--
Mats

[DeepFriedIctalurus]

That Pleco does not look like the one the LFS has either. It is smallish, and the owner said they get to about 6" max. It's a black/white fish, like a zebra but not the same from what I understood? They had them before for 50$ 6 months ago and I missed out then. He has an order in now that have been there a few weeks and he got quite low on price, so the price is lower now, than the ones he had at $50 back then. The lines on the pleco aren't as 'broad' as the zebra pleco, they are much more thinner lines. I think I saw a picture of a King Pleco? that looked more similar to this fish I am talking of. I will try to find it.


This is it!!!



That's what it looks like.

If you like black & white plecos,

Panaque sp(l204)

would be a better match for your dempseys' water conditions (basicly tapwater). Being from Peru, these are pretty easy to find as well. Though usually called emperor plecos in the states, I've also seen these sold as "imperial" before..

FYI, if the shop really does have L066 (which now has restricted importation), I'd mention that they're more widely known as "king tigers". ;)

[teqvet]

Great! thanks for the info. He looks like a nice color, and I'll have a ton of driftwood in the tank so should do well with that. I'll have to check with my lfs's and see if it's something available locally or if I'll have to special order it from someone.

[teqvet]

misread nm

[Psy]

Of course they don't grow smaller on captivity. They're a captive bred, line bred morph. Not one, to my knowledge, has ever been collected in the wild. The fishbase entry is for normal morph, which does tend to grow larger than the Blue variety, but I will cede to it could be reasons other than genetic disposition that this is the case. Does an inch matter either way? Would an 10 inch fish really be worse off than an 8 inch fish? Actually, I have never heard of one living long enough to hit 10 inches, but that is another problem with the morph.

I do like small fish in big tanks. Right now, I have a several 4 inch max cichlids in an 80 and a 5 inch fish in a 120 (that one is going to get bigger). For certain fish, it makes a world of difference (never again on 6 inch barbs in a 75) but I had an 11 inch cichlid do quite well in the same tank. The cichlid (like the JD would) was generally content to hide out in a clay pot and wait for food. The barbs thought it was wise to bounce off the glass when the light was turned on. It was not the size that mattered, but the behavior, so I think its a much more nuanced situation that 2x length for the tank width.

[MatsP]

Of course, sizing tanks to suit the fish isn't a simple formula. The one I've used, 4L x 2L x 2L is a STARTING POINT. From that, you also take the behaviour of the fish (fast/active swimmers: add extra width and length). JD's aren't active swimmers, but they like a nice amount of space to call "home".

Also, for most other captive bred morphs of fish (where the morph isn't physically deformed), the ultimate size is same or similar to that of the "normal" morph, e.g. albino bristlenoses or albino corys grow to the same size as their normal coloured varieties. Electric Blue JD's are "more colour" instead of less, but that, to my mind, should not affect their size. That's not to say that there aren't other genetic deficiencies in their ancestry, that DO affect their size - I couldn't say.

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Mats