High pH

[Atlantis Child]

I tested my water this morning to find my cory tank water pH has gone up to 8.3. (eek!) pH of the tap water here is quite high, though not usually as bad as that. Water in my danio/buenos aires/pygmy catfish tank is at the same, but they seem fine for now.

I plan on heading to my petstore to grab some pH down. Is there a more natural way to bring it down without chemicals? I've considered getting some water from the health section of the local grocery store to mix in. Would not be doing that every water change forever though.

Heard that pH down chemicals don't are a temporary solution, but in the long run to make pH work there has to be some kind of natural balence thing going on. Does that make any sense? If so, how does that work?

My first suspicion that something was wrong with the water was two or three of the cats got a fray to their dorsal fin. Not agression in the tank, so I knew it couldn't be that.

Will high pH do that particular thingto cats? I suppose anything real out of their prefered water chemistry would cause them to be suspectable to problems, but that? It don't look like no fin rot I've ever seen, but something bad is up.

pH isn't one of those things I tend to monitor, or know much about. Will monitor and learn more about though. Sorry fish!


Can I please get some help with this pH thing? Any would be much appreciated!


- Atlantis

[racoll]

What was the pH in the tank before?

What is the pH of your tapwater out of the tap and after 24h aerating?

Is there much algae/plants in the tank?

Also, have a read of this: http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=332

I would definitely not add pH down, especially as the fish seem fine; i.e. there is no reason to do anything urgent.

[apistomaster]

Atlantis,
Please do follow racoll's good advice.
You cannot "fix" any pH "problem' by adding more chemicals to the water. Quite the reverse is true. You will need a source of pure water, as in free of total dissolved solids like reverse osmosis, rain or anion/cation filtered water to remove all the substances in your tap water and then add back in the minimal amount of minerals needed to achieve your target values.
Usually, water that is fit to pass the standards of Canada are likely suitable for keeping the majority of tropical fish. It is more often necessary to use much softer water and perhaps a lower pH to breed many of the more demanding soft water fishes which typically come from waters with a low pH. I have found in the case of dwarf Corydoras that just using 25% tap water and 75% RO water greatly improves their hatch rates. I do not alter the pH but with the reduction of buffers as a result of dilution with so much RO water, the ph naturally drifts down to about neutral, 7.0 or 6.8. No chemicals added.

[Bas Pels]

From the questions asked I would conclude the csource of the high pH is in the tank

Assuming this is the case, adding RO water will not help - this water is without buffer (tap water contains dissolved matter which stabilises the pH at a certain value, this stabilising feature is called buffering/buffer). Diluting the water with buffer capicity into water with less will decrease this resistency and thus increase the pH

Two options excist:
1 consider your tank as a laboratory, keep adding pH minus - or some acid (low pH = acid water) untill te pH will not bounce back. Obviously, this is not a method of choise

2 remouve the source of the high pH. If your tank has received something new - take it out, change water and see what happens. quite a good chance the pH will remain acceptable. However, in a new tank anything can be the source

Quite an other obeservation

getting some water from the health section of the local grocery store to mix in

This might very well be not a good idea. Calcium and magnesium (and others) rich water is good for humans, but fish from soft water rather not swim in it

Humans ain't fish

[Atlantis Child]

Thanks for the quick replies.

What was the pH in the tank before?

It's been a while, but I think it was about 7.8

What is the pH of your tapwater out of the tap...

more or less 7.9

and after 24h aerating?

Let me get back to you on that one.

Is there much algae/plants in the tank?

Not much at all algae. Do have bristlenose pleco and 2 small American Flags (awesome fish for picking thicker algae off plants!), but still very algae-free without their help.

Moderately planted.

I would definitely not add pH down, especially as the fish seem fine; i.e. there is no reason to do anything urgent.

Reason for my posting thread was my concern that some of my corys dorsal fins were starting to get ragged for no real obvious. Wondering if it had to do with the high pH.
Looking to my tank now (it's right next to my desk) I see 1 of my cardinals in the same tank is getting a bacterial issue on his back. Shit.

I am getting worried. I don't usually have problems with my fish like this. And it's only been in about the last week.

From the questions asked I would conclude the csource of the high pH is in the tank... If your tank has received something new - take it out, change water and see what happens. quite a good chance the pH will remain acceptable. However, in a new tank anything can be the source

Only new thing is an air bubbler for a bit of extra circulation and oxygen. Tank is well established.

getting some water from the health section of the local grocery store to mix in

This might very well be not a good idea. Calcium and magnesium (and others) rich water is good for humans, but fish from soft water rather not swim in it

They have de-mineralized. Distilled also.
Will start collecting rain water and see how that tests out.

Humans ain't fish

Some humans would like to be sometimes...


- Atlantis

[Atlantis Child]

The water I got has no minerals, pH of 7.6. I did a 2 gallon water change for it (the aquarium is a 22 gallon).


- Atlantis

[Lesley_B]

When you say the pH has gone up to 8.3 do you know what it went up from? As pH is logarithmic, a full unit change is +/- 10, a half unit change is +/- 3.2 and a change of 0.3 is +/- 2.

Like the others here, I strongly advise against adding pH down. From experience. I used 6.5 Buffer and managed to make a flock of platies very ill through the change in pH. I have two left from that group and I think I will eventually lose her.

You have no control over the additive. It can increase the pH before it reduces it and may acidify your water to the point where other minerals, compounds and elements, safely bound in alkaline water, are released. You may make problems worse rather than better.

As a general rule, hard alkaline water is safer than acidic water unless your fish have a specific requirement.

Keep a check on pH values - out of the tap and after dechlorination.
I have to add a treatment to remove chloramines present in the tap water over here which are a by product of the water production in this area of the UK. Some areas of the UK don't have chloramines in the tap water and all people there need to do is aerate the water.

You don't say whether you tested for nitrates, nitrites or ammonia in your tank. Even too much nitrate isn't a good idea.

Most decent LFS's can provide a professional test of your tank water.
You might want to have the tap water and the water ready for a water change tested as well as your tank water.
It seems you know you can buy simple test kits already.

I suggest you test the water for the above, change the water depending on the results, and test regularly to get to know how your water parameters vary.

Regards

Lesley

[racoll]

Sorry for all the questions. Some more...

Do you know what your KH is?

How do you measure the pH?

How long has the tank been set up?

Do you think you might have any calcareous ornaments?

I assume you have been using your same tapwater in the tank from the start?

If the tank has been set up for a while with no problems, I would not suspect that the pH is causing immediate problems.

However 8.3 is too high for your fish long-term, especially the cardinals. Regular small water changes with mineral free water will be the best way to reduce the pH/hardness gradually, providing there is nothing in the tank causing the pH to rise.

Your plant growth is certainly contributing to the high pH. Any C02 given off by the fish or bacteria will be removed immediately.

Try testing the pH early morning before the lights come on to see if there is a difference.

Adding a small yeast based C02 system could also help in this case, seeing as you have plants.

[Atlantis Child]

When you say the pH has gone up to 8.3 do you know what it went up from? As pH is logarithmic, a full unit change is +/- 10, a half unit change is +/- 3.2 and a change of 0.3 is +/- 2.

Has been a while, but I think it was 7.8. Have to start keeping a "fish tank journal" again. *sigh*

Like the others here, I strongly advise against adding pH down. From experience. I used 6.5 Buffer and managed to make a flock of platies very ill through the change in pH. I have two left from that group and I think I will eventually lose her.

You have no control over the additive. It can increase the pH before it reduces it and may acidify your water to the point where other minerals, compounds and elements, safely bound in alkaline water, are released. You may make problems worse rather than better.

Thanks for the warning!

I have to add a treatment to remove chloramines present in the tap water over here which are a by product of the water production in this area of the UK. Some areas of the UK don't have chloramines in the tap water and all people there need to do is aerate the water.

We have both chlorine and chloramine present in the water here. The tap water treatment solution takes care of both.

You don't say whether you tested for nitrates, nitrites or ammonia in your tank. Even too much nitrate isn't a good idea.

Ammonia: none
Nitrate: aproximately 1
Nitrite: less that 0.1

Most decent LFS's can provide a professional test of your tank water.
You might want to have the tap water and the water ready for a water change tested as well as your tank water.
It seems you know you can buy simple test kits already.

Till last friday I was one of the girls testing people's water at my LFS. I bought the same kind of master kit I used there right before I left. Well, it's been updated slightly, but basically the same. This is the first I've used it. Only difference is that mine has 3 different chemicals and 20 minutes to test for NH3 and their's has 1 and gives (easier to percieve) results after a a few shakes.

Mostly telling people "yes your water is fine, add some more fish if you want," but sometimes, things like "You have very high ammonia. What do you keep in your tank? 20 guppies in a 3 gallon!? That'd probably be why they're dieing. You might want to rehome some..."

I kid you not on that last one. Poor guppies. She did donate most to the store, so all was good after that though. Nice lady, just didn't know about fish load limits yet.

Anyways...

[Atlantis Child]

Sorry for all the questions. Some more...

Questions good. They'll hopefully help me get answers. I need answers.

Do you know what your KH is?

As of right now, 80

How do you measure the pH?

Using the high range test from the "pH high range (7.4-8.6)" of a chemical aquarium test kit.

How long has the tank been set up?

Since last October.

Do you think you might have any calcareous ornaments?

No. All I've got in there is a "statue" of Poseidon aquarium ornament.

I assume you have been using your same tapwater in the tank from the start?

Yep

However 8.3 is too high for your fish long-term, especially the cardinals. Regular small water changes with mineral free water will be the best way to reduce the pH/hardness gradually, providing there is nothing in the tank causing the pH to rise.

"pure" water changes it is then. Hope it rains soon. I tested the aqurium water a few hours after doing the 2 gallon with the de-mineralized and the pH has gone down a tiny bit. Slightly under 8.2 looks like. I took out the bubbler then too. Don't think it makes a difference, but whatever.


Interesting about the plants. I'll take a peek at them CO2 things and read up. I've always been a bit nervous of them and their impact on the fish.


- Atlantis

[apistomaster]

KH=80? I presume that is 80 ppm since I would have expected a numerical value of something like 6 to 12. Does the kit give you conversion rates for reporting in different units? Like 80ppm/~17.5 would indicate a rather soft water, which peat filtration, careful CO2 supplementation or very carefully titration with dilute acid will bring the pH down easily to closer to 7.0. If your fish are living well, don't be to quick to play around with changing it.
The important thing is you now know that it is easier to adjust the water to whatever you please if it starts out as essentially plain water without any dissolved chemicals since one can always add much easier than subtract substances.

[MatsP]

The water I got has no minerals, pH of 7.6. I did a 2 gallon water change for it (the aquarium is a 22 gallon).


- Atlantis

Interesting. I wonder what produces the .6 in that - "pure" water should be pH 7.0, and higher pH is usually contributed by minerals.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

"pure" water should be pH 7.0

Theoretically, yes

however, as air contains CO2 - carbondioxide, also referred to as carbon acid, the theoretical pH 7.0 will soon after exposure to air drop to 5.0 or less

So Mats surprise should be a lot more than 0.6

[MatsP]

Bas, I agree - what I meant was that there must be something in that water to stabilize the pH at that value.

--
Mats

[Atlantis Child]

KH=80? I presume that is 80 ppm since I would have expected a numerical value of something like 6 to 12. Does the kit give you conversion rates for reporting in different units?

5 different ones, though 4 seem real weird. The oringinal 8 multiplied by 10 gives the mg/L. Sorry, should have put that in. It'd be an 8 probably then. x 1 for "hardness" with a raised 0. Is that the one you use for the range you mentioned?

pH this morning when I was turning the lights on was 7.8. That's just fine with me. Hope it stays it gets stable like that or real soon downwards and my fish will have no worse troubles with the bacterial infections. pH is crazy! Everything seems to affect it. I wonder how much me turning off the bubbler affected it. Time for an experiment.

Not in a tank with fish in it though.

Good thing I've plenty of time on my hands right now for keeping an eye on things. State of fish and water and all. And being able to post to forum at 10 in the morning to learn from you guys of course.


- Atlantis

[MatsP]

So that's 8 degrees of KH. Not low, but not off-to-the-right-of-concrete either.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Test kits can be notoriously inaccurate.

Try and get a second opinion with a different brand of kit or digital meter.

An LFS should help you out.

[Atlantis Child]

Things seem back to normal and in balence again. The fish have gotten better and those that had some fin rot are re-growing nicely.


- Atlantis

[Lesley_B]

Glad to hear it's all settling down again.