P. pardalis or multiradiatus?

[Lesley_B]

Hi

I have pictures of my plec here and I would like to identify it so that I know how big it is going to get and the environment I need to provide. I have had him about 9 months now and he is about 8" long.

I'm interested in knowing what he is and how big he'll eventually get. He's in a 120 (c. 27 l ) tank with a 2213 Eheim at the moment.

Sorry the dorsal view is a bit blurred but I can count more than 8 rays so I figure he is not a Hypostomus.



Here's a belly shot


and just hanging around on a rock


He's showing some stress because he's just been moved into that tank. Would also be nice to know if he is male or female.

Look foreard to hearing from you.

Regards

Lesley

[Silurus]

I think pardalis.

[DutchFry]

i keep P. pardalis myself and i agree with Silurus on this one!

[MatsP]

Statistically, chances are 99% that you have P. pardalis - they are bred in HUGE numbers in South-East Asia and imported to the UK from those fish-farms, whilst P. multiradiatus, not commonly captive bread would be much more rare in the trade (and as they are nearly identical, it's unlikely that someone would catch them in the wild for the fish hobby - most shops have one or a few large ones that have outgrown their current tank, and small ones are available in my local shop at something like £2-3 (USD $4-6) each, so the exporters will not pay the local fishermen in South America for this fish).

--
Mats

[Lesley_B]

Thanks for all your help on this.

He's in a 30 UK gallon tank at the moment so I guess I will have to find something at least double that size within the year.
It's not really very well set up for him being a fairly narrow tank. It's difficult to get anything of enough height that he can go hide in without the loaches in the tank taking it over.
I'd like a deeper tank so that I could build a rockery for him but I've nowhere to put all that at the moment.

I'm wavering on keeping him to be honest and the down side is so few people want to keep such a large fish. If I had known how big he was going to get I think I might have stayed away.
If I had the money and the room a much larger tank wouldn't be a problem but it's the handling of him that concerns me.
He's going to be a big fish and he was a bit tough to catch when I transferred him to the 30 gallon. Someone on another forum has advised on a method.

He is cute, very placid and he's taken to sitting on the wood, facing out toward me in the tank at night, pectoral fins helping him balance on the wood.
The cat thinks he's amazing. She's not bothered by anything else in the tank, she is just bowled over by the plec. Anyhow, I'll have to think on whether to keep him or not and
try to stcik to the decision if I can rehome him. A LFS said they'd take him some months ago but I changed my mind.

Are they more difficult to rehome the larger they get?

Regards

L.

[NewFishKeeper]

If you ask around with regards to rehoming him im sure you could find a decent Lfs to take him, i would imagine the bigger he gets the harder rehoming will be though

Im shocked at the amount of Lfs's that state they are great for small tanks, i actually stood and argued with one in the evil (pets at home) She was trying to sell it to a couple who had no clue about pl*cs, i took them aside and told them it would be a monster and the assistant raved at me glad i can do my bit

gl with whatever you decide, hes a beautiful fish

[MatsP]

Lesley, where abouts Surrey are you - (and I presume you are in Surrey England, and not Surrey, Canada or some other place called Surrey - perhaps it would be a good idea to fill in a tad more in your Location, but you don't have to give the town/village name). My "local" since I restarted fishkeeping a few years ago is in Farnborough, Lynchford Aquatics, on the western edge of Surrey, and they will (probably at a grudge, but still) take your fish off you.

Catching them with a "cave" is a good idea. Just put a suitable piece of pipe or such in the tank (and remove all other hiding spaces). Once the fish hides in there, you just take the pipe out, fish and all, and drop it in a bucket [with a decent amount of water from the tank] or such [plastic bags are not great for larger plecos].

--
Mats

[Lesley_B]

MatP

I'm in the UK and about 12 miles from your LFS. I might take a pop up there to see what they've got in.

It is hard to find a good (and honest) LFS. There are two Maidenhead Aquatics shops at Woking and East Horsley and the Woking one has said they'd take him off my hands wen I asked earlier on this year. But I chickened out of getting shot of him. I was up there last weekend and they now have a huge plec in one of their big tanks along with some other large fish.
The Woking one stocks a lot of plecs but I don't know plecs well enough to know what grows to what size. For instance they had some Royal plecs in, quite small and I thought they'd looked lovely but they grow huge !

They appear to still have some space though so I would probably ring them first to check if they'd take it then try to catch him. I have a bucket with a lid but it is a bit small and the only other buckets are 10 L ones without lids.

Part of me doesn't want to get rid of him, he's a major piece of the tank tbh. Other than that I have a couple of platies and five loaches in there. (The problem with providing a single hiding place is the loaches).
If I did rehome him, I think I would choose another plec that isn't going to grow so large to replace him.

I'm postive his tail fin has got bigger over the last few days....

Regards

Lesley

[MatsP]

May I suggest that you "swap" your common pleco for a

Ancistrus sp(3)

. They grow the right size for any but the smallest of tanks.

This is warren, the only Loricariidae that I've got from the Woking branch of MA:


He has fathered several hundred babies, and is currently sitting on fry/eggs in his cave.

--
Mats

[Carp37]

Hi Lesley and welcome to Planet Catfish

I agree with Mats, Ancistrus sp. 3 ("common" bristlenose- shouldn't be more than £4 for a tank-bred fish and half that if you're lucky) is active in the day, doesn't exceed 4" standard length and has lots of personality, so is probably your best bet for a smallish pleco. Just don't buy many- I started with 4, 1 climbed out of the tank the day after I bought them, but the other trio have now produced several hundred babies and can flood you very quickly. It's a shame you moved when you did- I think everyone in SVAS is inundated with these at the moment! They're not quite as nice as the various common plecos but still have a winning personality.

Clown plecos (Panaque maccus) are also suitable but they're a lot more nocturnal and shy, and need bogwood to feed on. As a result they also need heavy filtration and lots of gravel vacs- I rarely see mine feeding although they'll pop their head out from time to time.

There are a number of other small plecs (mostly with L numbers) but many you'll never see in the day, or they have specific water requirements or need high temperatures. Unless you want to make two trips to the LFS you'd pretty much have to memorise the Cat-eLog to know which are suitable.

[Lesley_B]

Hi Carp

I've been reading about your horny little devils over on the SVAS forum . I'd say congratulations but it must be very hard work.

I have actually been thinking about bristlenoses because they are the most easily identifiable out the lot! Not sure how I'd cope with the breeding rate though so I would probably get one or two females.
Would two fit in a Rekord 120 and are they best kept in pairs or are they as happy alone?

Thank you all for your help.

Regards

Lesley

[MatsP]

Bristlenoses are happy on their own.

They have some small and large ones at Lynchford Aquatics (including 6 larger males from me).

--
Mats

[Carp37]

As Mats says, they're not really social fish except when looking for mates so they don't pine away. How big is a Rekord 120? If it's 120 litres then the tank could hold a couple of females without problem- my trio are just in a 2' 6" 18-20 gallon tank, although (until they had four separate spawns) they only had to share with endlers and a few apple snails.

I'd stick with the tank-bred ones (Ancsitrus sp. 3) if I were you, as many of the more recent imports need soft, acidic water.

[Lesley_B]

Well the water down here leaves something to be desired ... the pH runs to about 8 and it's quite hard.

The 120 carries 120 litres and is just over a metre long at 101cm 46 cm high and 31cm deep. Not really deep enough for a large fish.
I took the filter box out so all the room in the tank is available.

Having read the Cat-E-Log, they require a sand or pebbly substrate and I have small gravel in at the moment.
This photo http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=4422 reminds me of an Escher print.

According to the Cat-E-Log while the Starlight is very pretty there are two types called this : the Ancistrus punctatus L182 which grows to 9" and the A. dolichopterus L183 which is half that size.
From the photos it is a striking looking fish but I'll avoid until I am able to identify the difference between the two.

I'll take a look at Lynchfields this weekend and see if I can make sense of what they have.

Small transport problem re fish at the moment. The car failed its MoT and I've scrapped it. Ho hum.
They wanted 300 plus VAT for the welding and the emissions were out so I'll have to borrow a mate or a car - or both to get the plec out the tank first.
Don't think the plec would like it too much on the back of a motorbike.. somehow.

Will be making phone calls to LFS's to see who'll take him tomorrow.

Apart from the four wheel issue, how should I transport the plec. I took a look at the bucket with a lid and it is too small for him.
Other than that I have some B&Q orange buckets or a large polystyrene fish box he might fit into. Would he be okay in either of those?
I could always tape something over the top of the bucket to stop debris falling in the bucket/him jumping out.
I think he should still fit in the fish box but I would be putting him in raw - i.e. not in a bag so would the polystyrene box itself cope/ would he cope in contact with the polystyrene?
I am favouring the bucket idea because the box is large enough to be awkward to handle and I'd hate to drop it.

Regards and thanks for all your advice

Lesley

[Carp37]

I'd go for the bucket idea Lesley with the top covered, IF it's not had anything nasty in terms of cleaning products in it. I use the orange B&Q buckets for water changes at home, but they never have anything other than tank water and tap water in them.

Personally I'd avoid L182/L183 with your water as they're one that prefers soft, acidic water (I've even passed them up in Sheffield for that reason); they might be fine but it's a risk. I'd go for the sp.3 Mats suggested initially as they're super-adaptable in terms of water quality- you can always get more adventurous a couple of years down the line. This "species" (bearing in mind its undescribed) has been in the hobby for over 50 years solely due to its adaptability and ease of breeding (as noone knows where it was collected from, we can't collect more), so it's hardy!

I also think your substrate should be fine- they're not mad keen on sand IME but any gravelly substrate should be OK.

[MatsP]

I'm not convinced that Ancistrus sp(3) are undescribed - however, we do not know which species it is or it's wild collection point(s). There are some potential candidates, such as A. bodenhameri - if someone can get their hands on one then we could make some DNA analysis on that and compare it with the captive bred one.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

Lesley, FWIW: i've bred Ancistrus sp 3 (i usually call this "Ancistrus domesticus") by the hundred in a tank with almost exactly those dimensions

the other fishes in there were a bunch of Phyllonemus typus and some of the smaller Tanganyikan cichlids.

captive bred Ancistrus aren't fussy at all. another nice algae eater wich does fine in that water is the captive bred L144. this Ancistrus is bright orange and has blueish eyes
don't confuse it with the more pink albino form of Ancistrus sp 3. adult L144 are a deep orange, young ones can be more yellow.
this is at least as good with the algae cleaning, and adult male !44 grow a very impressive "moustache" of bristles.

you could go for the entire philosophy of "adapting the choice of fish species to the water" instead of adapting the water to the fish.
Tanganyika, Malawi or Central America is full of fish that like harder water and a pH of 8.

from Tanganyika there's a fair number of small catfishes that can be kept in this tank, and there are some cichlids and even some smaller eel species that fit in there too.
the best choice is going Tanganyika, there are many small Tanganyikan fish. Lophiobagrus spp, Phyllonemus typus, Synodontis petricola and S lucipinnis are all small.
too many cichlid species to number and as for others, there's Caecomastacembelus albomaculatus or the slender C tanganicae that get imported. but reach 8" but are long and thin. an 8" eel easily fits in a 3 feet tank.

Central American cichlids also like hard water, but many grow big. Thorichthys spp, Herotilapia multispinosa or Archocentrus sajica are among the smaller and more docile species that can be kept in this tanksize (not combined, but 1 pair of them). unfortunately the rarely imported CA catfishes get too large (Rhamdia quelen).
if you don't like cichlids or you want to add dithers to a frienfly pair and your Ancistrus, there's a whole range of nice Poecilia, Xiphophorus, Limia, Phalloceros, Phallichthys and Girardinus species that do perfect in a small tank. almost all are very peaceful and highly actiove shoaling fish that do fine as dithers to pull the catfish out of hiding and make up for a lively tank.


Malawi has little choice on fish that stay small, the ones that do are often highly agressive and should be kept in a large group (Mbuna) and hence, still need a bigger tank.
Malawian catfishes are extremely rare, even the smaller ones (Synodontis njassae) reach 8".

[apistomaster]

I have bred common Ancistrus "guppyostomus" in a US standard 10 gal tank, lets just say, frequently. I have a friend who has a pair from an albino X normal that are in a slightly smaller tank with one of those hoods with the filters built in and they began spawning at 2-1/2 inches TL producing 25% albinos and 75% Normal phenotypes. To say they are adaptable and easy to breed is an understatement. He keeps the local fish shop supplied with all they can handle with just the one pair.

[Lesley_B]

Well ... I rehomed the plec successfully today at the Woking branch of Maidenhead Aquatics.
The bucket plan worked a treat but he gave me a fair shower before he got in it.
I used a four pint milk carton with the bottom cut out and a net and finally caught him between the two and into the net.
He was as good as gold on the trip up.

They said he's going to stay a while and I could go visit ;)
They'll also make sure whoever buys him has the right tank to hold him.
I hope he gets to go in a huge tank with lots of space.

He's in a tank with some really big cat fish - they did say what but I couldn't tell you now.
Amongst his next door neighbours is a big gibbiceps.

I'm relieved they had space for him.

Thanks for all the advice about alternative fish.

As far as other fish in the tank, I have five loaches - 3x yoyos 1x striata and 1x polka dot, a small male platy and a single rather poorly female platy. My next task is to try to revive the female platy.
My 10g tank has a small split in the base so that is out of action until I fix it or get another small tank delivered as a hospital tank for her.
The breeding trap will work temporarily in that I can half dose the tank because of the loaches but make sure she at least gets the treatment as it goes in the tank. It's not an ideal platy situation - he wants females and she is too sick to want to know.

Anyway this isn't a platy board so enough of that.

Regards
Lesley