Breeding Loricaria sp rio atabapo, fries are dying....

[five]

Hey guys, I have been trying to breed the Loricaria sp rio atabapo. I would say I have failed as the fries keeps dying on me though the pair have bred for the 5th time.

I need some good advice on how to keep the fries alive.

Here is my story.
1st time breeding
The 1st time the pair bred was in a 2feet cube community tank. I left them alone in the tank thinking the fries will be fine with the parental care. But I am wrong, as all the fries were no where to be seen. I suppose they must be eaten, either by the mother or by the other pleco(L226).

2nd time breeding
It happens within a few days after the the 1st batch of fries hatched, the male is holding eggs again. I feel so sorry for him as he has been holding the last batch for a whole 2weeks, giving the eggs TLC, without eating anything. He is looking thin. So out of sympathy, I remove the eggs from him and 'incubate' them manually by placing them in a holder, hanged in the same tank by the side of the powerhead. The eggs hatched sucessfully, albeit some did not survived due to fungus. I leave the fries in the holder in the same tank. I fed them hikari carnivor sinking pellets and they seems to be enjoying that as their food. They eat well for the 1st week. Then 2nd week came, and they started dying. They comtinue to die daily till not a single fries made it.

3rd time breeding
This time round, I saw the male holding in the 2feet cube community tank. I catch it out and place him in another 2feet tank for him to hold the eggs till hatching. The purpose is I wanted the fries to hatch in this 2feet tank, which is meant as their grow up tank. The fries hatched successfully. I forgot to mentioned, each batch there will be around 80 - 100 fries. I remove the male from the tank. The fries were fed daily at night with Hikari Carnivor sinking pellets. Same thing happened. 1st week, all are well, the fires are eating happily. The 2nd week came, fries begins to die daily. It gets worse towards the 3rd and 4th week. Now I am left with probably less then 10 from the 3rd batch and at times, 1 will die for no apparent reason.

4th time breeding
This time round, I have prepared another 2feet tank meant for the pair. I placed the pair in this tank. Soon they mated again. Once I saw the male holding the eggs, I remove the female from the tank. The tank is separated by a partition. I did this as I intend to raise the fries at 1 part of the tank, while keeping the parent at the other part, just beside the fries, sharing the same water parameter. Again I fed them Hikari Carnivor sinking pellets. Yet again, they die on me from the 2nd week onwards. Now I am only left with 6 (latest from this morning counts).

5th time breeding
The pair bred again in the new 2feet tank. Upon hatching, I have to remove both the parent from the tank. I have PM a forumer who have successfully bred similar fish, L. Simillima that is, with minimum casualty. He mentioned the death of the fries might be due to the food I fed. So for this 5th round of breeding, I am not feeding Hikari Carnivor sinking pellets anymore. I will try feeding only frozen mysis shrimp, frozen brine shrimp and spirulina tablets breaks into fine pieces. But this morning I just saw 7 dead fries.

More information. I am changing water twice daily, day and night. Each is 2litre of water. So 1 day, effectively, I am changing 4litre of water. The water are aged water, pre-soaked with peak moss. The tank is about 75ltre capacity. It is filter by a Eheim Liberty 200 hanged by the side of the tank. PH is about 6.8.

HELP

What could be wrong? I really hope someone can give me some sound advice. It really pains me to see the male putting in so much effort to care for the eggs till hatching, and end up with all the fries dying.

Pls help!

[andrewcoxon]

hi,

i experienced this exact problem with my zebra pleco's... i was so frustrating.

whats your nitrate? part of my problem was because i was power feeding my fish high ammounts of nitrates would build up despite frequent water changes... now i do lots of water changes in the days before the eggs hatch and make sure they are 10ppm or less always when young fry are present in the tanks.

another problem i had was (like you) my male doesnt seem to be good at raising fry. he looks after the eggs brilliantly but as soon as they hatch and start wriggling he freaks out and crushes most of them and kicks all the others out....

so now i leanred my zebras eggs take 5 days to hatch in my temp tank, all i do is keep an eye on them until they lay, count 4 and a half days (you dont want to take the eggs too early) and then remove the eggs to a floating breeding tank with an airstone. i get 90-95% success rate now like this but also make sure you clean the floating trap every 2 weeks or bacteria will build up and you will lose more fry again.

is your tank bare bottom? set up a fry tank with a thin layer of sand and this will stop the bacteria building up and killing them also.

try that.

good luck!!

[five]

Hey Andrew, YES, this is frustrating.

My NO3 level is about 25 - 50ppm. I reckon this to be high. But I aren't sure if this is the cause of the high death rate.

I have just transferred a nitrate filter to the fries tank. But seems that it is not functioning well. I suppose it is due to the fact that it is now in a new tank with new water parameter, thus the nitrate filter need some time to settle down with proper readings. It is controlled by a Mv controller. I am worried that it might take too long a time to settle down. Because the fries are dying day by day, they can't wait!

In the meanwhile, I am doubling my water change regime. That is, 4litre in the morning and 4litre in the night.

But Andrew, may I ask when your fries hatched, do you still continue with your large water change? Will the large water change affected your fries in anyway? It seems that with the amount of water change I'm doing, it doesn't seems to bring down the NO3 level much.

Also, what are you feeding your fries? I am wondering has it got to do with the food I am feeding.

[apistomaster]

I think it is best to place the fry in the net breeder and I would feed them earthworm sticks. These also have Spirulina as an ingredient but importantly. this food is something the fry can graze on constantly. The sticks becomes very soft which aids the fry trying to eat it. Algae wafers are usually too hard for fry to eat.

You should not be afraid the continue making large water changes as long as you use a water conditioner, I like Prime. The fry of most Loricaria are used to an environment like a shallow fast moving stream. Do not be afraid to direct a fair amount of flow through the net. I usually place the return flow outlet of an Eheim Classic 2217 inside the net breeder. Many fry attach themselves right on the outlet. I use the flared type of outlets, not the spray bars. This is further evidence of the need for a current. But do make those water changes to keep the nitrate levels low.

[Jon]

This mass die off situation is not uncommon for loricariinae, and I have seen it firsthand with sturisoma, farlowella, and sturisomatichys. However, from what I know of loricaria, they are quite robust. Can you give us more details on the rearing tank?

[five]

Hi apistomaster

I am using aged water soaked with peat moss. Do you think I still need to add Prime?

Hi Jon

My tank size is 24inch by 16inch by 12inch(H). The bottom is covered with a thin layer of fine river sand.
Filtration is by a Eheim Liberty 200 hang by the side of the tank. The tank temperature is maintained at around 26 - 28C.


Any tinker?

[five]

Hey guys, some updates. The nitrate filter is taking effect. NO3 level is gradually going down. Good news.

Bad news is, I just saw another 7 dead bodies this morning. I noticed there's a red dot in the middle of the tummy, just inbetween the 2 pectoral fins. Is this some internal bleeding. What could be the cause? NO3 poisoning? For this batch, they are born in an environment with NO3 hovering at the 25 - 50ppm level. Is there a possibilities that they have already been affected.

There is another batch coming which the male is tendering. Hopefully when they hatch, the NO3 level would have fall below 10ppm. Only then will I be able to say if it is indeed due to the NO3 level that the fries keeps dying.

In the meanwhile, any idea what could be the cause of the death beside NO3?

[five]

Hey guys, I have taken some pictures of the death scene.

The picture can't really show the red blood dot in the middle of the tummy, which is between the 2 pectoral fins. But it's the dot in the middle. The dead fish with tummy up.


Showing a unpleasant sight.


The tank is partitioned into 2 part. the right side is where the father is, tendering to the eggs.


The father tendering the eggs.

[five]

Guys, I am sorry. Because it seems that the posting only show the left side of the pictures I have attached. Somehow, the right part can't be shown.

[apistomaster]

I assume Singapore tap water is treated with chlorine/chloramine and should be treated with a water conditioner. I just happen to like using Prime. It often takes time and experimentation until you find the best way to care for Loricaria fry or their close relatives but using the net breeder as I suggested is a method many of us have found effective. The fry just seem to be best off kept confined and near their food but you still need the benefits of the stability of a larger tank and that is achieved by hanging the net breeder in the spawning tank. I would greatly increase the volume and frequency of your water changes. By confining the fry and feeding them in the net, less food goes further and does not end up creating excess nitrogen compounds. The fry appear to be starving to death but nitrates and lack of strong currents may well be contributing factors. These fish have evolved to live and breed in well oxygenated fast water. The sucker mouth and their stream lined shape allows them to live in fast moving streams and to scrape the bio-film coating rocks. The bio-film consists of algae and diatoms but many aquatic stages of insects are found in this film. Mayfly nymphs, black fly larvae, stonefly nymphs and oligochaete worms which form tubes in the film are found in abundance. The insect larvae of minute sizes are very numerous and make up a great deal of the food the fry eat in the wild.

I really recommend using earthworm sticks instead of algae or blanched vegetables as the staple food for the fry. I would offer them canned green beans as a supplemental food. Give them a choice to find out which foods they prefer. I think very young fry need more animal protein than adults because they use a lot of energy to grow and thrive when given the strong currents they would normally inhabit in the wild. I think you will find that providing a strong current helps strengthen them and is far better for them than the calmer water they are currently living in. They don't need to move much to receive highly oxygenated water in the wild and that is also why they should be kept in close proximity to their food source.

They fill a niche very similar to that of the Hill Stream Loaches found in SE Asian streams.

[Jon]

Honestly, given the amount of what I assume is food littering the substrate and the presumed microbal/algal growth on the front plane,I think you may be overfeeding. Consider a separate tank altogether and feed sparingly, but heartily.

[pturley]

It's been several years ago, but I have spawned and raised Loricaria sp. fry.

Skip the veggies and the prepared sticks, pellets, etc.
For the first four weeks feed them heavily (2-4 times per day, more food than you would expect!) on newly hatched brine shrimp nauplii. They will not take to it immediately and need to be triggered into feeding mode with APR, OSI Micro-Invertibrate Foods or similar. Once they feed regularly (in about a week) you can skip the APR.
Once they reach 1.5+ inches in length you can start diversifying the diet.

Also, I didn't do any large water changes for the first couple weeks (only 5% or so, every 1-2 days) as they are very sensitive to changes in water chemistry.

I didn't use anything extraordinary in regards to filtration or water movement. Just a Penguin 300 on a 40 breeder (120L) aquarium.

[five]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I last update this post.

Despite the fact I add in a nitrate filter, increase the flowrate, add in air pump, running a fan to keep temperature at bay in a tropical country like Singapore, and did regular maintenance, the fries are still dying day-to-day.

I really have no idea what is the cause of the death.

Now, as a last resort, I will be getting a 9 watt UV filter to clear the tank of any parasites, if there're any.

Tank condition:
PH: 6.6
NO3: <10ppm
Temperature: 26 - 28 C
Using aged water treated with Seachem Prime, soaked in Sera Peat, for daily water change of 2 - 4 litre once per day.

Please give me some advice if you do have any. I really need some guidance.

Thanks.

[five]

On 2nd thought, do you guys think I have used the wrong approach?

It seems the planetfish eLog page stated the PH for this fish should be PH7.5. Is this suppose to be the water parameter at rio Atabapo?

[racoll]

seems the planetfish eLog page stated the PH for this fish should be PH7.5. Is this suppose to be the water parameter at rio Atabapo?

I think I am correct in saying the Atabapo is a whitewater river so an alkaline pH is probably better, but honestly I don't think this is what is killing your fry. If the adults are okay and breeding it is probably fine. Messing with pH will cause more problems.

I have raised a good number of

Pseudohemiodon sp`marbled`

fry, which is documented here and here. These are very similar to the

Loricaria

.

They fill a niche very similar to that of the Hill Stream Loaches found in SE Asian streams.

I will disagree with Larry that they are current lovers to the extent of the balitorid loaches (Loricaria do not have the same extreme rheophilic morphology), but adding oxygenating airstones and a gentle current will keep waste in suspension so the filter can take it away from the fry.

My experience in raising the Pseudohemiodon fry was that all the deaths were caused by overfeeding with rich dried foods. Their tiny guts can only accommodate a minute amount of food, and they were very quick to die when I fed too much. I'm not sure whether the effect of the food was metabolic or physical, but they stopped dying when I cut the feeding right down.

I also operate a UV filter, which reduces background bacterial levels, which may have also had a positive effect.

Hope this helps.

[five]

Hey racoll, you got a very nice setup. Love it! Thanks for sharing your experience.

Allowed me to share my observation. Formally I have divided the tank into 2 portion. 1 side will be housing the papa fish taking care of the eggs, while the other is housing the last batch of fries. There're 2 particular that manages to sneak through the divider and got into papa territory. As the papa is tendering to the eggs whole heartedly, he is not eating. So no food is fed in this part of the tank, even though the 2 stowaway fries are in it. Surprisingly, these 2 fries live till today. It is 100% survival rate though feeding is restricted. Rather, the portion of the tank holding the fries are fed twice a day without fail encounter daily death.

So from this observation, I am also thinking about food. I actually thought about the protein level in the prepared dried food, has it anything to do with the death? I do not know where it came from, but I just have the notion that food too high in protein is not good for some fishes. Maybe it got to with my Tanganyikan cichlids keeping days.

Ok come to protein not being good to the fries, if it's any true. To counter this believe, I am thinking of feeding the fries solely on spirulina tabs, grounded into 'almost' powder form. These tabs I got them from lfs which claim they are 99.5% pure spirulina. There isn't any brand name for them. I have tried them on the fries and they take it readily.

However, will there be any nutritional issue if the fries are fed purely on these at this stage of their life?

PS: anyway, I will still be getting the UV once the lfs stock them up.

[Janne]

It seems the planetfish eLog page stated the PH for this fish should be PH7.5. Is this suppose to be the water parameter at rio Atabapo? I think I am correct in saying the Atabapo is a whitewater river so an alkaline pH is probably better

Rio Atabapo is a blackwater river, low in pH ~4-5 and high in temperature30 C. If your fry shows red dots in their stomachs I should suspect a high bacteria level, clean the bottom/gravel daily but before going further you may clean the whole tank first and start over. I dont think they are so sensitive for "wrong" pH but a high level of nitrate is also a sign of a high bacteria level so I am sure thats your problem.

Janne

[racoll]

Rio Atabapo is a blackwater river, low in pH ~4-5 and high in temperature30 C

Thanks for clearing that up Janne.

but I just have the notion that food too high in protein is not good for some fishes

Ok come to protein not being good to the fries

Yes, for some species, but in this case, I think it is the amount in one go rather than the protein level per se. I feed mine the same foods, just in smaller and more frequent portions. I also pre-soak for a few minutes.

I also would agree with Janne that improved tank hygiene will make a big improvement. So will the UV.

[katmandu]

hi

i don't know is it important but i'm keeping my fishes in PH 5.8-6.5,kh 2,gh 2 nad changing water every 2 days,about 10%.thats how my leucostictas(cichlids) are spawning with L 66 in the same time.if i would be keep them in higher GH in will not work at all.i tried and nothing.GH down,1 week first batch.L 66 fry hatched,straight removing it to small net box in the same tank,to keep the same papameters,about 75 % survive every time.

thats my thing

i tried for a year and now is working

never lose a hope


my wife always saying.if you paying to much attention to fish to spawn or fry to survive,it will never work it out.sadly she is right

good luck

regards

Tom

[five]

It seems the planetfish eLog page stated the PH for this fish should be PH7.5. Is this suppose to be the water parameter at rio Atabapo? I think I am correct in saying the Atabapo is a whitewater river so an alkaline pH is probably better

Rio Atabapo is a blackwater river, low in pH ~4-5 and high in temperature30 C. If your fry shows red dots in their stomachs I should suspect a high bacteria level, clean the bottom/gravel daily but before going further you may clean the whole tank first and start over. I dont think they are so sensitive for "wrong" pH but a high level of nitrate is also a sign of a high bacteria level so I am sure thats your problem.

Janne

Hi Janne, I have decided to heed your advice to clean the whole tank and start all over again.

But how do I sterilise the tank properly? Should I use anything cleaner to clean it? Or merely just by scrubbing with plain water?

I have some free time today, so probably I'll work on it straight.

[five]

I have just took out all the fries and clear the tank of all the sand and water.

Next, I just need to sterilise it.

I am thinking of hooking up a UV steriliser, and fill the tank with water. At the same time scrub the tank throughly with the water running through the UV steriliser to kill all the parasites. Do you think this is good enough as a way in sterilising the tank?

[racoll]

I would not completely sterilise the tank. You will kill too many of the beneficial bacteria, and cause more problems this way. Tapwater will reduce bacterial levels, but will not kill everything off.

Just remove the sand, wash it thoroughly in tapwater and replace only 0.5cm, as you have way too much in there now (that could be part of the problem, if food particles are trapped and going bad). Then just scrub the tank with a clean sponge or soft scouring pad and rinse out with tapwater. Also wash the filter media in old tankwater.

the UV steriliser to kill all the parasites.

Not sure why you suspect parasites. There doesn't seem to be any evidence to support this. The deaths are most likely caused by overfeeding and high levels of bacteria.

A clean tank, less food and a UV unit should reduce the mortality.

Also, a little tip with English, below are fries, whereas baby fish are called fry (plural or singular)

[five]

Hi racoll, thanks. Not many people do this, correcting the english of another. The other person that did this to me is my boss many years back. I really appreciate that as this is the way to push me to learn.

Back to the tank issue. I am contemplating maintaining a bare bottom tank, with no sand at all. Do you think this is a better choice? Or is it better to keep a thin layer of substrate?

PS:I am craving for fries now...

[racoll]

Hi racoll, thanks. Not many people do this, correcting the english of another. The other person that did this to me is my boss many years back. I really appreciate that as this is the way to push me to learn

No problem. Glad you weren't offended.

I am contemplating maintaining a bare bottom tank, with no sand at all. Do you think this is a better choice? Or is it better to keep a thin layer of substrate?

It has been suggested that having no sand creates an even worse layer of deoxygenated bacterial film, that can kill loricariid fry. I would stick with the sand, but only use just enough to cover the tank, and stir it up every couple of days with your fingers to release any particles of food.

This is what I do, and it seems to work.

[five]

Hey guys, since my last updates, I have scrubbed my tank clean, change new gravel (from river sand to 1 - 2mm gravel), change to new pump and filter system. I have now been feeding the fry Ocean Nutrition pellets, Hikari sinking pellets, spirulina tabs, Hikari algae wafer etc.

The water parameters as follow:
NO3 < 5ppm
NO 2 < 0
PH 7
Temperature 27 - 28 C

Have been changing water of 5 litres every alternate days for the 70 litres tank.

I would like to ask, with me scrubbing the tank wall every alternate days, will it do any harm? Because I could see dirt floating in the water when I am scrubbing. These dirt would otherwise be sticking on the tank wall. I am worried these dirt will be harmful in one way or another to the fry. Any advice?

Here's some pictures to share:
Full view o the tank:


A group of them


A loner by the wall


Munching the Ocena Nutrition pellet


Have added in some 'sakura' shrimps to eat the uneaten food