Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 09 Apr 2008, 15:30

For years Blue eye Panaques were not around or if they were they were Xback arrow money but mostly they were simply not around. Suddenly in the last few months boom ! They are everywhere ... still expensive but certainly regularly available again.Ok I think to myself .... so somebody is shipping again reliably out of Columbia fair enough .... but now I find out these recent exports are coming out of Brazil! Does this mean there is now a third source of Blue Eye Panaques?

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 09 Apr 2008, 15:35

A more reasonable explanation would be that another destination for smugglers has popped up.

But on the other hand, Brasil is very strickt with fish export, much more than Colombia - as far as I know

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Apr 2008, 22:59

That they come from Brazil may also just mean that's where they boarded the plane for the last part of the journey. I'm 99% sure that they are caught in Colombia (or possibly just the Venezuelan side of the border).

--
Mats

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 10 Apr 2008, 08:12

Yes that could explain it Mats but it doesn't explain the sudden abundance (well compared with the past 5 years or so) of them appearing for sale.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Apr 2008, 09:53

The reason I heard earlier with regards to the lack of these fish was that the area where they are captured is held by drug-gangs in Colombia. It is possible that one or more of these things make a difference:
1. The fish collectors have found a different route.
2. The gangs are in collaboration with the fish collectors.
3. The gangs protect their area(s) less fiercely.
4. The drug gangs have moved to somewhere else or been captured by law-enforcement.
5. The fish collectors are more desperate.

That's of course just speculation from my side.

I doubt, however, that the blue-eyes are coming from Brazil these days, but I guess there is a border to Brazil in some parts of Venezuela, but quite far from the northwest corner of it, which is where these fish come from.

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 10 Apr 2008, 10:06

FARC, the kidnapping-and-cocaine guerilla in control of the area, has suffered setbacks recently, e.g. a laptop with damaging information being captured in the recent Colombian raid into Ecuador, but I don't know that they've given up much land.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is that the fish were apparently exported from Brazil, not Venezuela as one would have expected if this is FARC expanding into a new field. Then again, maybe that would have been too obvious.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Apr 2008, 10:16

Mike_Noren wrote:FARC, the kidnapping-and-cocaine guerilla in control of the area, has suffered setbacks recently, e.g. a laptop with damaging information being captured in the recent Colombian raid into Ecuador, but I don't know that they've given up much land.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is that the fish were apparently exported from Brazil, not Venezuela as one would have expected if this is FARC expanding into a new field. Then again, maybe that would have been too obvious.

Well, it's illegal to export any wildlife from Venezuela, so it's very unlikely that the fish would ever get exported from Venezuela itself, but obviously, the border controls in the rainforest is probably not the strictest, and fish itself don't really bother about lines drawn by humans on pieces of paper that we call borders on maps, so fish will often occur on both sides of the border in a river like the Orinoco that forms the border between Venezuela and Colombia for a long stretch, for example.

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 10 Apr 2008, 13:11

Well, Venezuela considers FARC to be of vital strategic importance; Venezuela supports FARC with safe havens and monetary aid (to the tune of several hundred million US dollars), and, as recent events have shown, is even willing to go to war with Colombia to protect FARC.

I'd say it's a safe bet that Venezuela would issue export permits if FARC asked, but perhaps it'd have been a bit too obvious: Venezuelas support for what to the rest of the world is an obvious terrorist organization, is sensitive.

My personal reflection is that it is unfortunate for all of South America that Venezuela is loaded with oil. If not for the oil Chavez would be limited to screwing up his own country, but through oil his influence extends far beyond Venezuelas borders.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Apr 2008, 13:33

Probably shouldn't joke about such a serious subject, but what the heck.

I just checked out the Wikipedia page for FARC, and wow, do those chaps know how to recruit soldiers

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 10 Apr 2008, 13:57

My post seems to have not made it???

I was in discussion with my LFS (former employer) the other day - & he asked if remembered one of our fish suppliers (local in the uk). Apparently he now lives out in Columbia on land he purchased from the government after they reclaimed it form drug-gangs. There are some previously uncollected rivers within his land & he is starting to export. Could something similar be why we are seeing more blue eyes now?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Apr 2008, 14:37

Richard B wrote:My post seems to have not made it???

That's strange. If it happens again, make a post in the Bugs section and I'm sure Jools will be looking into it.

I was in discussion with my LFS (former employer) the other day - & he asked if remembered one of our fish suppliers (local in the uk). Apparently he now lives out in Columbia on land he purchased from the government after they reclaimed it form drug-gangs. There are some previously uncollected rivers within his land & he is starting to export. Could something similar be why we are seeing more blue eyes now?

Quite plausible.

--
Mats

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 10 Apr 2008, 15:19

I might also add the Brazils 'strict" export controls are a joke. The amount of P14's,Leo's and wild caught Zebs that manage to swim all the way to Peru render whatever controls Brazil attempts to put on them meaningless.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 Apr 2008, 16:20

There are two forms of Blue eye Panaque. The original was those found in the Maricaibo drainage but just to the east within Columbia, is the other Blue eye Panaque which is the one being exported with one exception. Oliver Lucanus, http://www.belowwater.com, recently brought in a few specimens he was allowed to collect from the Maricaibo basin. These fish are very, very expensive.
The two forms are not identical. They have been separated by a geographical barrier long enough that it has allowed for some divergent evolution.

FARC doesn't collect fish; they impose a tax on all forms of business people living and working in their territory. The woman FARC warrior is carrying enough 7.62 mm AKA 47/74 ammo to ruin many a fish collector's day should he object to paying the taxes.

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 10 Apr 2008, 16:50

Having shot an AK47 very recently i can concur that you wouldn't want to mess with anyone who had one!

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 10 Apr 2008, 16:57

I've promise my source to remain silent on this topic.
But here is something I can say. You guys shouldn't make a big deal out of the fact that blue eye pleco exsist and are readily available. We don't know how many there are. But one fact I believe is true is that they are more common than you think. Local villages around those area fish them and eat them for lunch for the past 20 years.
As for Oliver's catch, they are not cochliodon as we first though. They are either suttoni or another new one that we haven't seen before.

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 10 Apr 2008, 17:32

apistomaster wrote:There are two forms of Blue eye Panaque. The original was those found in the Maricaibo drainage but just to the east within Columbia, is the other Blue eye Panaque which is the one being exported with one exception. Oliver Lucanus, http://www.belowwater.com, recently brought in a few specimens he was allowed to collect from the Maricaibo basin. These fish are very, very expensive.
The two forms are not identical. They have been separated by a geographical barrier long enough that it has allowed for some divergent evolution.

FARC doesn't collect fish; they impose a tax on all forms of business people living and working in their territory. The woman FARC warrior is carrying enough 7.62 mm AKA 47/74 ammo to ruin many a fish collector's day should he object to paying the taxes.

I am extremely skeptical of Belowwaters claims about those fish and I'm not alone.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 31 May 2008, 22:48

Used with permission from Edwad Ruiz:
Those of us somewhat more familiar with P. suttonorum (AKA P. suttoni or Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque), as of now, LM-BEP; in as far as the many years of pinpointing their actual habitat and due to the fact that they are one of our backyard fish - even if not common (more so since my family has several haciendas or farms in the Catatumbo and South Lake Region of the Lake Maracaibo Basin) in the State of Zulia are pretty clear as to the existence of two distinct species (or maybe subspecies) with very similar traits, though distiguishable to the eye of the not so trained.

In Colombia, on the West side of the Sierra Perija we have the Magdalena River Basin which is home to Panaque cochliodon (another Blue Eyed Panaque which we may refer to as the Magdalena River Blue Eyed Panaque or MR-BEP) with a very similar body color to the LM-BEP.

The Magdalena Fish is flatter (horizontally compressed) and less compact while the Lake Maracaibo species is a higher, stockier fish.

Some authors (esp. Schultz) refer white markings on body and fins of suttonorum but these are age/stage related traits not present in all specimens.

The Colombian Magdalena BEP is more readlily available and is many times sold at a reasonable price. Four or five years ago I saw a lot being sold at USD 15.00 a piece in Baranquilla. Of course, speculators will offer them at a much higher price.

A little over a year ago a couple of fishermen from Encontrados, Zulia, came upon some mature adult specimens in their seines while fishing in deeper lake waters near oil well platforms near the mouth of the Catatumbo River. This is a very clear and clean area of the Lake due to the number of large rivers that shed their water into the area (extreme South Lake Maracaibo) despite the Oil Industry activity.

The juvenile form prefers the middle and higher sections of the rivers in the area. We are not certain if the adults swim up the streams and rivers mainly to breed since large adults are not frequently found upstream.

Now there is at least one party that we know of, maybe more are doing it now, smuggling the LM-BEP into Colombia to export it. OTF exports in general are very hard to work from Venezuela for the moment since the "authority" is no more than one huge bribing machine and it makes any luxury product ridiculously expensive.

I can tell you first hand that Oliver did travel to Venezuela and clicked the right buttons in November 2007 and that he has received and sold more then 50 LM-BEP, mostly to reasonable Asian fanciers. He even sent me a pic of himself posing in front of a Chavez billboard (made my day? yeh right.) Oliver knows Zulian waters very well.

LM-BEP's cost is four low cyphers virtually at the source.

Ed

andrewcoxon · Post by **andrewcoxon** » 01 Jun 2008, 00:39

great info

which of the 2 do you think i have?

thanks

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Jun 2008, 06:29

I think unless your Blue Eye Panaque spp came from Oliver Lucanus and cost almost $1000 US, then the odds are best that you have Panaque cochliodon. And as Ed wrote, most of the P. suttonorum went to well healed Asian aquarists. The prices in Japan are much higher for all desirable wild SA fish.
This is something I come up against all the time when trying to find superlative specimens of wild Royal Blue Discus. I'm willing to pay up to $150 US each but that same fish may fetch $600 US or more in Japan. I hate to say it, but despite the fact that many fine wild Blue Discus are imported into the US, those really exceptional specimens tend to make a connecting flight to Japan. One is always free to pay the same price as as others for the priviledge of buying these stunners.

The same situation has also prevailed for some time with regard to rarer Hypancistrus spp., Apistogramma spp and Corydoras spp.
The Japanese aquarium trade also have their own representatives in SA making direct exports to Japan. People will pay in proportion to how much they value they place on the fish.
In the United States, the simple to keep and breed African Rift Lakes Cichlids have not completely run their course and are still making up much of the higher end fresh water fish business.

puertoayacucho · Post by **puertoayacucho** » 01 Jun 2008, 07:42

Hi guys, I'm Edgar Ruiz (not Edwad or Edward) and I go by Ed. Been a member here for sometime but too busy administrating The Angelfish Study Group (TASG) / Finarama to enjoy here woth any frequency. I do know Shane from several years back when he was at the Embassy in Caracas and have exchanged opinions and updates with him on P. suttonorum for at least five or six years.

I'm a Venezuelan Biologist myself from Maracaibo, Zulia though I'm actually more American than Venezuelan and I live in SLC, Utah at present (I relocated from Venezuela in 2003).

The fact that I consider myself with some knowledge on P. suttorum and P. cochliodon is through my best friend and mentor Biologist Edgar Wilfrido Cabezas (Wil), an apprentice (in the late 70's early 80's) of Dr. Donald C. Taphorn. If you are not familiar with Dr. Taphorn's work in Ichthyosystematics, please google him up.

Though Wil would never take any credit as to the reapparition of "the Suttoni" I spent with him many hours and years hunting down this fish in the Lake Maracaibo basin, educating fisherman, talks and even trying to get cooperation from the authorities to protect this species.

Now and then we would catch some of these fish (I saw about a dozen in 25 years) but we were looking in the wrong places, following Leonard Schultz's trips to the Rio Motatan (an affluent shedding into Central East Lake Maracaibo) and the Rio Yaza, Rio Santa Ana and Rio Negro (nothing to do with the "Big" Rio Negro - this is a small mountain river up the Sierra Perija, the northernmost branchoff of the Andes Mountains) and from there South around the lake up the Rio Catatumbo, Escalante, Chama and many others.

Schultz had collected a total of seven juveniles from the Motatan and the Yaza, several tens of miles upstream from the actual Lake Maracaibo.

In January 2007, a first adult specimen (over 40 cms) was caught and killed. Shane, Oliver and I shared images of this dead fish which was later donated to the Zulia State University (LUZ) Museum of Science where it is preserved. I understand the images were provided by a Biologist from The Andes State University (Merida, Venezuela) and some others came from Dr. Taphorn and Wil.

Near April 2007 a large female was caught and this time, the fish was kept live and she is to this day at a friend's home in Maracaibo where I understand Wil now has several adult specimens (or at least a pair).

Once the location of the female was known and made public (as I said, on an oil well platform in the lake proper, near the Mouth of the Catatumbo River), fishermen and collectors started raiding the area by the hundreds.

And so, several dozens of the fish came out to the trade. Oliver got his hands on a nice bunch.

Prices for the P. suttonorum are awkward even at the source and their selling price is at minimum close to or over $2000.00 USD (FOB Montreal)

Exportation of OTF from Venezuela of this species I think is illegal or to some extent protected (I think it's on the CITES list), otherwise, wildlife can be exported but under "prohibitive conditions", that is, taxes and fees run so high that it's just not worth it... thnx to Mr. Chavez' regime. Three years ago, exports (OTF) were coming out regularly.

Nowday, Venezuelan OTF exporters have teamed up with Colombian exporters and basically sell to or partner with them. 99% of Venezuelan fish are exported through Bogota.

FARC doesn't normally bother the poor fisherman dealing with OTF but will give foreigners a hard time. if anybody knows Oliver personally, he can pass as a local fisherman as long as he doesn't open his mouth and that's just what he does. He's the mute helper on board.

As far as P. suttonorum or for the fact, P. cochliodon, coming from Brazil... never heard of that... but wonder if the information may have something to do with the fact that the Lake Maracaibo tributary Rio Negro has been identified in literature as a source of P. suttonorum and that this may cause the confusion... thinking Rio Negro, the amazon tributary (just a thought!). I wonder if I read somewhere of a P. cochliodon occurence in Brazilian territory?

Still, I would recommend a sharp eye if you are offered P. suttonorum at any price. They are not coming out in commercial quantities, they are hard to fish because they like deep water (5-10m), as far as I know, no one is offering large numbers and to get an ordered worthwhile quantity it can take several months, hence the high price tag.

On the other hand, P. cochliodon from the Rio Magdalena in Colombia (the river is about an 8 hr drive from Maracaibo, Venezuela) which was always more frequently available and always sold as Suttoni did become scarce for some five years... now they seem to be showing up in considerable numbers and with the recent findings of the Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque is being sold as such, commanding very high prices.

If anyone has these pics and would like to be sure what they have, I can have Wil take a look at them (I could also be of help) and he will let you know for sure.

Ed

Post by **Shane** » 01 Jun 2008, 07:57

The Brazil angle is actually not impossible. As Ed pointed out P. cochliodon is from the Magdalena basin which is wholly located in Colombia. P. suttonorum has an unknown distribution, but is limited to the Maracaibo basin and its tributaries. I have long thought that Schultz' coloration description of the white body markings must be age-related and it is good to hear Ed confirm this. I have since seen this marking, a white ring around the caudal peduncle, show up in populations of P. nigrolineatus but it always disappears long before the fish reaches maturity. I suspect the white band of P. suttonorum to do the same.
The Brazil angle - As Jools can testify from our last trip to the Tres Fronteras area (borders of Colombia/Brazil/Peru meet) there are collectors from all three countries working those waters. These collectors/exporters sometimes trade animals because thy can get a better resale value for them or have less problems exporting them. For example, a Colombian collector/exporter we spoke with had H. zebra. Moving H. zebra from Brazil to Colombia is very easy and there is no law that restricts their export from there. I would not be surprised if a Colombian exporter exported P. cochliodon to Brazil for resale or transhipping. The point being that just because a fish is exported from Country X does not mean it was collected there.
The Uribe administration has had tremendous success against the FARC, AUC, and ELN and I would not at all be surprised to see formerly closed collection areas open back up.
As to Racoll's comment... They only have to recruit Colombian women to gt troops that good looking.
-Shane

puertoayacucho · Post by **puertoayacucho** » 01 Jun 2008, 08:07

If anyone is interested in some pics of recently found P. suttonorum please write me at edgar@alto-orinoco.com

Ed

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Jun 2008, 08:24

Hi Ed,
Whoops, on not using your correct name, Edgar, You know I make that error from time to time because of the many Eds's of note we have in the finarama/TASG group and my own absent mindlessness. A 1000 pardons, Sahib.
You know I will finally have some 8. Peruvian Scalare soon. Not the king, P altum, but near enough to make me an Angelfish keeper in reasonably good standing again.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 01 Jun 2008, 11:20

So far I think I've got all the pictures right in the cat-elog right for , but I certainly wouldn't mind another experienced eye to look over them. however is another matter as there is a mix of pictures in there collected over the past 10 years or so of running the site. I'd certainly appreciate an experienced eye's look at them.

I do have however one more question. I'm happy about the difference in terms of both morphology and distribution between and , but what about the velvet black coloured fish we say a decade ago? All the fish I've seen recently (even in top condition) are grey. Is there a third species black bodied blue eyed Panaque (BB-BEP)? Were they just black when small(less than ~20cm)? Do we know for sure where these came from in the past?

Jools

calsonic · Post by **calsonic** » 07 Jun 2008, 11:50

does anyone know an exporter or importer i could deal with directly to get one of theses fish? i have been after one for 2 years i even went and looked at the one that was at wildwooods 2 days ago but it was too much money. i missed out on one that was traded in a few months ago the shopkkeper didnt realise what he had and put it in a tank with whitespot when i went back two days later it was gone he sold it for £55 i was gutted thanks for any help

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 07 Jun 2008, 12:28

Calsonic - - i think it's gonna cost you an arm & a leg! They are on aquarium glaser lists at £1,300 trade!!!!!

calsonic · Post by **calsonic** » 08 Jun 2008, 14:10

wild woods want £1200 for theres so i thought if i went to the collectors or importers i might of got it cheaper but ifi cant ill just have tosave my pennies i have about £700 to pay for one but no more if my family knew howmuch i was gona pay they would go ape

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 08 Jun 2008, 16:08

there was a guy in leicester who was advertising one for £1,000 in aquarists classified a while back.

Am i being naive thinking you could get one for much less than this???? Opinions anyone?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 08 Jun 2008, 19:45

Some 5 years ago I got an older (15 years) specimen from a relative, who bought it for 20 euros* but was unable to keep it due to its size. As it ruined my background (in a very noisy way) I returned it to him. He then gave it to someone else and I believe it still lives in that tank.

* about 14 GBP

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 10 Jun 2008, 11:53

Very very interesting info!!!

A great thread indeed...

Owning a blue eye too and having bought him recently(2months ago...)and for quite a high price(2500euros

) i would like to ask you if you could take a look at mine too and tell me where you think he originates from...He is 27cm long,with good tail fillaments and he was imported from Venezuella along with other fishes by Amazon Exotic Import.I cant tell about if he is grey,blackish or black as from my experience,this depends a lot on the viewing angle and the angle of lighting...

I think however that under ideal lighting that doesnt reflect on the fishe's body odontodes,he is solid black.Here is my thread with photos of him...

What do you think of him?

Thank you very much in advance!

[mod edit: fix broken tags --Mats]

Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?

Re: Blue Eye Panaque's .... whats going on?