Which Auchenipterids are being kept by PC members?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 25 Aug 2007, 23:50

Marc van Arc wrote:Daniel60, could you confirm your fish look like this one or are they still as bright as the one you've pictured?

This is what one of them looks like today:

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 26 Aug 2007, 11:08

Hi Daniel,
Very nice fish.
Would you say yours are the same as Cathy's? I think yours has a more distinct pattern and that may probably be the reason that Mergus named their fish - which looks like the ones Cathy has - Tatia cf. reticulata.
What's your opinion?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 26 Aug 2007, 12:41

Marc van Arc wrote:Hi Daniel,
Very nice fish.
Would you say yours are the same as Cathy's? I think yours has a more distinct pattern and that may probably be the reason that Mergus named their fish - which looks like the ones Cathy has - Tatia cf. reticulata.
What's your opinion?

Don't really dare to have an opinion yet - I haven't read Mergus or Mees' description, and I don't know where my fish were caught.
BTW, have you seen the naming competition on FishBase?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 26 Aug 2007, 13:18

daniel60 wrote:BTW, have you seen the naming competition on FishBase?

No, and I can't find it either on FB.
Have you got a clue/link/anything that might lead me there?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 26 Aug 2007, 19:36

Marc van Arc wrote:
daniel60 wrote:BTW, have you seen the naming competition on FishBase?
No, and I can't find it either on FB.
Have you got a clue/link/anything that might lead me there?

Take a look at this.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 26 Aug 2007, 20:03

daniel60 wrote:Take a look at this.

Thanks Daniel,
That was nice. And if I ever get bored, there are 16,900 other species waiting for a common name

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 26 Aug 2007, 21:07

Marc van Arc wrote:
daniel60 wrote:Take a look at this.
Thanks Daniel,
That was nice. And if I ever get bored, there are 16,900 other species waiting for a common name

Start with Auchenipteridae. Only 7 out of 102 species have got a common name.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 27 Aug 2007, 20:58

Daniel,
On a different track: have you got any idea if a bunch of your juvies have made it to the Netherlands? A large whole saler overhere is offering T. galaxias and although they are "new", they are not "wildcaught" and there's also no country of origin mentioned, which indicates they've been captive bred.
Could they be your T. intermedia?

C-Magnier · Post by **C-Magnier** » 28 Aug 2007, 09:14

Hi,

[quote="daniel60.../...This is what one of them looks like today:

[/quote]

It really looks the same fish...
What are there sizes yet?
Do you see any difference in the anal fin shape?

A+

*-*
Cathy

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 30 Aug 2007, 00:40

C-Magnier wrote:It really looks the same fish...
What are there sizes yet?
Do you see any difference in the anal fin shape?

They're quite small, 35-40 mm SL.
Haven't studied their private parts yet.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 30 Aug 2007, 22:06

Marc van Arc wrote: A large whole saler overhere is offering T. galaxias and although they are "new", they are not "wildcaught" and there's also no country of origin mentioned, which indicates they've been captive bred.

I didn't order them from my LFS for the above reason. Too bad I forgot I've another contact that is on the lookout for Auchenipterids. So guess who called this afternoon with the message he had a real nice surprise for me?
Luckily he bought just 3 specimen. I felt a moral obligation to buy them from him; after all it was not his fault they are wrongly named.
So now I have 16 Tatia intermedia....
anyone interested?

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 31 Aug 2007, 06:54

Marc van Arc wrote:[
I've taken tens of shots of these guys. They were literally shots in the dark, for they are quite elusive. The quality of the pictures is thus poor, but it's merely to show that these are NOT Trachycorystes (which is a relief). Get the picture?

Hello Marc

Did you ID your fish ?

I think it might be Parauchenipterus galeatus

BTW my Auchenipterid list

Centromochlus perugiae
Auchenipterus thoracatus
Trachycorystes trachycorystes

Charly

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 31 Aug 2007, 22:41

Hi Charly,
No positive ID yet, but I can assure you they're not T. galeatus.
I have them both in my tank and where the galeatus is built higher and looks more compact, the species(3) is more slender, looks elongated and has a much wider head.

Nice list btw and it shows you must have 2 tanks at least

.

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 02 Sep 2007, 22:30

Auchenipterids really know how to protect their eggs. These have been lying on the sand for three days, and no other fish has been interested in having a snack. In the tank there's 30 adult Tatia intermedia, two large L114, four L128, two Hassar orestis, three Dianema urostriata, ten Corydoras sterbai and three Bujurquina moriorum (my only remaining cich lids).

C-Magnier · Post by **C-Magnier** » 03 Sep 2007, 08:26

Hi,

daniel60 wrote: .../...

What's this exactly ? An eggs clutch, but coming from what?

Just a fews words about the latest group of C.reticulata.
Some of them are biggest than the first, about 5cm sl.
One of the fish looks like "moby dick", or a hot dog without bread, as you want. Just too fat or gravid, I dont know.
I hope I'll can take picture soon...

--
Cathy

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 03 Sep 2007, 10:08

C-Magnier wrote:What's this exactly ? An eggs clutch, but coming from what?

Ooops... forgot to mention that it's Tatia intermedia eggs.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 03 Sep 2007, 18:46

daniel60 wrote:30 adult Tatia intermedia

Daniel,
By having so many, could you support my observation(*) that male T. intermedia have elongated upper caudal lobes? Mine are not yet as long as the one I had some 20 years ago, which measured 12 cms.

based upon a single male specimen.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 03 Sep 2007, 18:50

Marc van Arc wrote:
C-Magnier wrote: A question first :
- Where is the difference between Tatia sp and Centromochlus sp? I thought first that is was fertilization process, but it's wrong...

A very good question. I'll come back to that. Have to do some reading and perhaps mailing first. Warning: answer may be long.

I've got a reply. However, it's rather technical so I'll need some time to understand it myself and to sort of re-write it in plain language.

C-Magnier · Post by **C-Magnier** » 04 Sep 2007, 15:04

Hi,

You have a reply! Cool!
The most I look at my last fishes, the less I think that they are C. reticulatus. One thing is sure, there come from the same place.
They are about 50 mm long, some of them have very elongated fins (pectoral & dorsal)...

Very difficult to take pictures

--
Cathy

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 04 Sep 2007, 22:16

C-Magnier wrote: The most I look at my last fishes, the less I think that they are C. reticulatus. One thing is sure, there come from the same place.
They are about 50 mm long, some of them have very elongated fins (pectoral & dorsal)...
Very difficult to take pictures

Cathy,
Do I understand correctly that your latest batch of fishes is not the same species as the 4 you already have?
I'm not aware of any Tatia species with elongated pectoral and dorsal fins.
I'm very curious about them. So in this case any picture might do.
Btw: they are not ?

C-Magnier · Post by **C-Magnier** » 05 Sep 2007, 08:46

Hi,

fisrt, a set of pictures :

General view. This is not the biggest one.

With C. guapore and C. hastatus. All the Corydoras are mature and seem to have their adult size.

View on the dorsal fin.

With LDA25 and C. guapore adult size too... (about 55 / 60mm). This guy has stoled Corydoras food.

Just for fun

view one the anal fin...

I think that these fishes and the 4 first are the same, but I don't know that fish it is.
I hope that the guy on picture is a male. I would be answered to a lot of interrogation (size, fin shapes...)

--
Cathy

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 05 Sep 2007, 20:17

Hi Cathy,
When comparing your pictures I'd say your first 4 fishes - on condition that they all look the same - are Tatia sp. cf. reticulata (or Centromochlus sp. cf. reticulatus) in which the sp stands for sofar undescribed and the cf stands for looks like. The pattern of this species (see page 9) is less clearly visible.
Your second batch is the genuine Tatia reticulata (or Centromochlus reticulatus) imo. They look a lot like the ones Daniel60 has, with a clearly visible netted pattern.
It looks like the one you pictured last (anal fin) is indeed a male specimen.
But it remains a difficult thing. With regard to gender matters I've just sent another mail to the taxonomist.
I'm seriously thinking of writing an article about it. So I hope you have some patience

.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:51

Marc van Arc wrote:With regard to gender matters I've just sent another mail to the taxonomist.

And I've got an ultra swift reply.
The scientific belief still is that Centromochlins (Centromochlus, Tatia and Glanidium) don't have internal fertilization.
Several of us amateurs think they do.
What we need is some good proof.
The question is as follows:
- Who has observed a mating,
- separated the female immediately afterwards in a non-Centromochlinae environment
- and got fertile eggs?
This scenario counts me out, for I have never separated gravid females (so far).
Anyone??

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:01

PS: does anyone know what happened to Achim? His last post was more than 3 years ago and I don't remember ever seeing his name in the on line list.
So I don't think a PM is any good in this respect.
Nevertheless, he has made a comment in his article on T. perugiae that fits the above question(-s).

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:08

Marc van Arc wrote:
Marc van Arc wrote:With regard to gender matters I've just sent another mail to the taxonomist.
And I've got an ultra swift reply.
The scientific belief still is that Centromochlins (Centromochlus, Tatia and Glanidium) don't have internal fertilization.
Several of us amateurs think they do.
What we need is some good proof.
The question is as follows:
- Who has observed a mating,
- separated the female immediately afterwards in a non-Centromochlinae environment
- and got fertile eggs?
This scenario counts me out, for I have never separated gravid females (so far).
Anyone??

No, I haven't tried it yet.
But I will asap!

C-Magnier · Post by **C-Magnier** » 07 Sep 2007, 15:00

Hi,

A little abstract now :

This one is Daniel60 C. reticulatus

This one is mine, from the first set:

This one is mine too, from the second set :

The 2 sets of fishes I keep came together in Europe, the trader has just put them in different tanks.
I'll try to take other pictures, whith other fish...
May be the patern is different between male and females?

A+

--
Cathy

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 07 Sep 2007, 15:50

Hello Cathy,
I can't say anything more than I've already said. Of course I'm no professional and it is just my opinion, which is based on the pictures, knowledge from books, some experience and interest in Auchenipterids.
With regard to your last question: I doubt it that the difference in pattern is a gender matter. I'm leaning more towards a variety (or sub-species).

A very short note on the difference between Tatia and Centromochlus: never mind the outside. The differences are found on the inside, so you can't differentiate just from the looks.
I'll try to write an article which is understandable, but - as said before as well - I have to understand it myself first

.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 15 Sep 2007, 22:37

Where have we got to on this thread?
Have we answered the original question?
I think that this is one of the longest threads on the site you know.

Matt

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 16 Sep 2007, 00:24

grokefish wrote:Have we answered the original question?
I think that this is one of the longest threads on the site you know.

The answer to your question is no, as long as there are people that add Auchenipterids to their tanks and want to share that information.
But it has also become a kind of "speak easy" on Auchenipteridae, which I for one find very nice. So as long as people are willing to share information, show pictures and pose questions on their fishes they are most welcome to do so.
Of course I'm very biased

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 16 Sep 2007, 20:46

I would never have guessed you were biased towards aucheniptrids Marc!!!