Red Tailed Catfish - Phractocephalus

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Mar 2007, 14:38

It sounds like he is run down, and could be suffering from a fungal or bacterial infection.

It is very unlikely that it is the plec or the snail, unless the RTC is really ill.

Try to get some pics if you can.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 10 Mar 2007, 23:41

Look at the other pictures I posted before he got ill or attack... I think it's illness because he have full red fins front and back.
He's on KanaPlex and I removed the pleco and snail today. I put them in a 30 gal and now I'm looking at that pleco and he's 12" front to back on the 30 gal. I thinking I'm going to be getting the 50gal out of the basement because that 30 looks to small for him (and the two cat in there that are about 6 to 7 inches that live in a cave. I never see them.

Please look at the photos and tell me what you think. I think the pleco must of gotten his whiskers over night I mean they just can't fall off can they?

Is he going to die?
http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0084.jpg
http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0085.jpg
http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0086.jpg

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 12 Mar 2007, 14:17

Loss of barbels (whiskers) can be the result of either bacterial or fungal infection, and yes, dead barbels (or part thereof) can fall off overnight - but they usually go a different colour first. Or, as you suggest, attack from the pleco, but I doubt it - if that's the case, the fish isn't particularly healthy anyways, as a normally healthy fish will move away if a pleco tries to eat it's barbels. They are sensitive (both touch and taste), so they aren't going to just sit there and let another fish eat them (unless it's already dead "meat").

Of course, if the barbel falls off, the pleco may find that as a "nice tasty bit of meat" - they are very good at finding protein, as in nature, that's not a frequent thing for them to get.

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 12 Mar 2007, 16:15

a picture of the whole fish might work better than these close-ups.

but from what I can see on the tailfin it's a massive bacterial infection.

unless you're going to grade up that tank soon (and I mean real soon!), you're going to fight an uphill battle I'm afraid.

this large fish will literally poison its' own tankwater by pooping in it, breating out all the oxygen and then the nitrites or ammonia go trough the roof; the fish will get sick, the bacteria go berserk at an already weakened fish and this is what you get.

pleco's rarely attack a Red Tail; usually it's the reverse cause this species has a reputation of eating everything in the tank, right up to and including the furniture!

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 12 Mar 2007, 22:05

Picture of complete fish. you can compare to others I posted last week of when he was healthy.

http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0088.jpg
http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0087.jpg
http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/100_0089.jpg

Snacka · Post by **Snacka** » 14 Mar 2007, 21:10

Unfortunate circumstances to say the least. Melafix is an organic anitbiotic that i have had some success with. Pimafix is an organic antifungal. Both are put out by Aq. Pharm. I have had 9 RTC's under my care for @ 2 years. They range in size from 18" to close to 3 feet. I feed them fresh fish once or twice a week...farm raised channel catfish to be exact. Removing the Pleco and the snail would help to reduce the bio load on your system but it is apperant that your RTC is in need of some help. On another note....if you are feeding the Jumbo Shrimp/Krill from Tetra be advised that i had similar symtems appear in a 2 ft silver arowana and a 16 inch Frontosa...that were feeding exclusively on this product. The symptoms arose after opening a new can. Good luck....don;t give up!

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 14 Mar 2007, 22:13

Snacka wrote: On another note....if you are feeding the Jumbo Shrimp/Krill from Tetra be advised that i had similar symtems appear in a 2 ft silver arowana and a 16 inch Frontosa...that were feeding exclusively on this product. The symptoms arose after opening a new can. Good luck....don;t give up!

Thank you. That was exactly what he's been eating that and nothing else.

I'll keep you posted. Right now he's starting to perk up a bit. Not breathing as labored and moving around. Still not eating but he's looks like he's fighting back a little.

Snacka · Post by **Snacka** » 15 Mar 2007, 14:20

Good to hear that....Have u ever thought about adding a good Chemical/Physical filter to help out your ehiem. I usually run aquariums of your size with a Fluval (fully biological) and a magnum 350 for the physical and chemical filtration. That way u can get more bio-media in your ehiem and will be able to change the carbon in the magnum more often without disrupting the bacteria in your biological filter. Again, the best of luck to ya!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Mar 2007, 14:54

I too am happy to hear that the fish is looking better.

I'm very sceptical that a carbon filter would work. You may find that a nitra-zorb (as mentioned before in this thread) works, but that's a lot of work, as it requires refreshing quite often (not to mention that the amount needed for a large tank like that makes it quite expensive).

In particular, according to Wikipedia, Activated Carbon does NOT adsorb ammonia (and from what I can find, nor does it work for nitrate or nitrite - but it's not quite so clear).

In my personal opinion, Activated carbon should only be used when removing medication from the tank (when this is not done by frequent large water changes).

--
Mats

Snacka · Post by **Snacka** » 16 Mar 2007, 17:30

Sorry...I did not mean to imply that actvated carbon would absorb Nitrogen compounds. Merely that it would help rid the water of disolved organics and other polutants in the water under normal conditions. One should rely on the biologcal filter to maintain the nitrogen cycle. If a "crutch" is needed to help with ridding a tank of nitrogenous waste the Poly filter is a good choice. Most of the time, recharging resins is more a pain than it is useful. If ammonia or nitrite "bursts" are occuring I would first and foremost increase the biological filtration as these are indications that the bio-filter is inadaquate for the amount of waste being produced. Keep us updated SuperMom

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 21 Mar 2007, 13:43

ok .... here is my .02c from someone who is extremely experienced with keeping RTC's.
The flared gills .... often a sign of poor water quality BUT I've seen RTC's develop them in perfect water and I've caught RTC's in the wild that have them too so its not a sure sign. The damaged whiskers and different behavior are a sure sign of poor water quality.
The 125 gallon tank is too small UNLESS you do (and I'm not kidding) a 50% water change every 48 hours. Even so its still too small eventually ... RTC's are a pond fish only IMHO they need at least 500 gallons per adult fish of bio room in a shape that gives them room to swim which can only be had with a totally round environment like a pond.
My suggestions would be to buy a third 2217 and run it with 2 pouches each of biochemzorb (or Seachem Purigen) AND nitrazorb and change the pouches every fortnight(don't recharge it ...throw it out and yes its expensive but its the only thing that works well enough). I would immediately treat the fish with Octozin or a Metro equivalent treatment and to do at least a 25% water change (after the treatment course has finished) per day with detoxified pretreated water.
If all you are feeding this fish is shrimp then its likely to have dietary deficiencies as well so vary its diet with pellets (Hikari Massivore) and other items (believe it or not grapes are good).
Despite what many people will tell you adult RTC's are amongst the easiest and most bullet proof of fish if kept properly but are unfortunately also the most often abused. If you look after them well and give them what they need they become a real pet and very tame and you can enjoy them for many years .... many many years ....I got my my first RTC as a little 6 inch fish when I was 11 years old and he only died last year at which stage he was well over 4 feet long.
I'm 42 years old BTW .....

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 21 Mar 2007, 19:36

I've kept out of this post, but have watched it for a while. It's heart wrenching, not just for the fish but also trying to watch someone cope with the heartlessness, ignorance and duplicity of a bad fish store.

Anyway, we all know that and we all know that RTCs are amongst the most common catfish found on eBay...

Supermom, if you want to email me a selection of pictures of your fish, and if you don't mind, I'm going to use them in the cat-elog to demonstrate signs of ill health.

A picture paints 1000 words and others can learn from your concisenesses and hard work.

Jools

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 21 Mar 2007, 22:49

I will email you pictures of him. I would like to help anyone else so they don't go through what I am going through.
Everyone posting here I appreciate all the input. So please understand what I'm going to say.
I have neverendingly checked and rechecked his water and it is good. I'm not taking offense that it is being suggested that his conditions are poor. But I want you to understand I'm doing everything I can for him to live. I read all your posts and take them seriously because his condition is serious. With that said I have to tell you my heart is breaking. I know he is not a cat or a dog but he is a living creature and I'm worried about him always.
I wake the first thing I do is see if he is breathing I come in from work the first thing I do is see if he is breathing. I have hand (forced) feed him three pieces of krill this week. Last week the fish store gave me 6 gold fish and said see if I can get him to eat. It has been almost a month with no food now.
I just got home and there are 5 gold fish. I'm causiously excited right now.
I have just finished the fourth set of treatments with KanaPlex. I don't know if it's safe to continue with more. In between each treatment I am doing a 50% water change. I'm not sure if I should keep doing it.

All I can say is as stupid as it sounds I love this silly fish and my heart is breaking.

(False alarm I found the 6th goldfish. he hasn't eaten)

courtnee · Post by **courtnee** » 22 Mar 2007, 02:39

My heartbreaks reading this post. I can see you love Hunter and I would too. He is stunning. You are trying so hard and your heart is in it. That is a good fish mommy.

Im not that good at fish sickness.

The tank size issue. Are you able to give him what he needs as in a indoor pond or a larger tank as you prepare a pond? Do you have 200+g tanks available in your area? That you can use for now to have him in a bigger home. I ask because if I was in your shoes that would be what I would be focusing on is his next level on home and planning for a final one. An indoor pond is a huge task and with a sick fish one that you would really have to ponder.

I just ran into a 221gl tank at a LFS and it was $900 for the tank, stand and lights. Expensive, could be worse but a huge tank.

I respect you very much for sticking with it and doing what you can.

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 22 Mar 2007, 04:43

If you have a basement space you can provide a cheap effective permenant home for Hunter at a fraction of the cost of a tank by using a 1000 gal poly stock pond available from http://www.stockyardsupply.com/page11/index2.html
for only $251 (many other stock supply stores also have it)
Running a poly stock tank as a indoor pond requires little effort and filtration is easy by adding a couple (one trickle and one cannister) pond filters which are also fairly cheap. Keeping the room warm will help with heating but the use of inexpensive gas spa heaters is also a good option.
To provide a traditional aquarium for the long term housing and comfort of Hunter would cost at a minimum in excess of $10,000 for a acrylic tank of 10x5x2.5 and attendent filtration and even this size would be less then ideal.
Poly ponds are a cheap and extremely effective solution for housing RTC's and I highly recommend them.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 24 Apr 2007, 15:09

Hunter died yesterday.
It has been a long and agonizing time with the pain of watching him fight to live and knowing that all I did wasn?t good enough.
I hope my posting here and sharing pictures will help the next person who might have a RTC. I unknowingly purchased him in a pet store and did my best to for him. I will miss my gentle giant. Loved him dearly.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Apr 2007, 15:19

I'm very sorry to hear that. I wish you're right and it does help people not to buy one of these!

Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's not the last time I'll be advising in such a case... (I wish it was)

--
Mats

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 25 Apr 2007, 09:43

That is sad news indeed.

Hopefully however you'll be able to draw breath, clean out the tank and start again with fish you can really enjoy and build a good community tank up?

Jools

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 25 Apr 2007, 10:44

or if you like the idea of a "pet catfish" that gets tame and large, there are several very nice looking pimelodids and others that reach a max length of about 1-2 feet wich is managable in captivity.

you sure did anything you could do, hopefully this post serves as an example to warn other people from getting a Red Tail and having the same sad experience you just went through.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 25 Apr 2007, 21:15

sidguppy wrote:or if you like the idea of a "pet catfish" that gets tame and large, there are several very nice looking pimelodids and others that reach a max length of about 1-2 feet wich is managable in captivity.

I was going to start a community tank BUT you have peaked my interest.... what types are as 'cute' as RTC with eyes like a puppy dog? Not too big! the tank is only 125gals.

I have a 110gal community tank (I had to put everyone somewhere after Hunter started growing)

Tell me more about larger cats....

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 26 Apr 2007, 07:45

what are the dimentions of that tank, Supermom?
I think that's even more important than the gallons, when it comes to the larger fishes.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 26 Apr 2007, 11:05

Tank demenisons are
6feet Long
20inches High
18inches Wide

courtnee · Post by **courtnee** » 29 Apr 2007, 13:41

Im so sorry! My heartbreaks for you and to us fish lovers we understand how hard it is to lose these guys.

I hope you find another cat that is able to fill your heart with joy.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:38

SuperMom wrote:Tank demenisons are
6feet Long
20inches High
18inches Wide

Take makes the largest fish you can (or should) keep around 8-10" long (according to the 4L x 2L x 2L minimum tank-size (L = lenght of fish)[1]). Unfortunately, almost all of the commercially available (large) tanks have too much height and length compared to their width, when it comes to keeping large(r) fish.

There are quite a few fish that stay under 10" max size. (The Cat-eLog comes up with 328 species if you take the ones that grow between 150mm (6") and 250mm (10")). You can use the search feature in the Cat-eLog to choose fishes that suit what your tank size can hold and other conditions (family, genus, temperature, geographic location, etc).

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/search.php

[1] There are people who disagree with this, rather simple, formula for size of the tank. It is a GUIDELINE, not an absolute rule. Active swimmers need more space, slow and non-active fish doesn't need as much. For many fish, the important factor is the amount of "personal space", rather than the amount of water the tank holds. Bottom space is important for many catfish species, more so than depth.

--
Mats

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 30 Apr 2007, 12:24

A Ornatus ?
Nice pim that doesn't grow big.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 30 Apr 2007, 12:34

taksan wrote:A Ornatus ?
Nice pim that doesn't grow big.

I presume you mean , although there are two other "X ornatus" in the cat-elog that are similar size:

Although not advertized yet, there's a "search on incomplete genus/species name" in the Cat-elog now:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/search_fb.php

If you enter "contains" and <nothing> in genus, with "is" and "ornatus" in the species list, you get a list of fish called "anyhing ornatus".

P. ornatus is probably the most similar to a red-tail and also easiest to get hold of (but not "EASY" as in "You can find them in any fish-shop without problem - but a good shop should be able to find one if you ask nicely).

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 30 Apr 2007, 17:58

unloike Phractocephalus however Pimelodus can be kept in groups, but then the whole tank starts to look more like a community, although with mediumsized cats.

but unlike Phractocephalus these are much much more skittish. maybe it's the "tame" catfish that really appeals to you? several mediumsized catfish can be "tamed" and handfed easily.
I haven't had any firsthand experience with Gouldiella eques, but it's a very pretty catfish.

if you look beyond South America, some other catfishes are possible. and some of those can be tamed and trained with ease. Parauchenoglanis for example and even better: Synodontis.
now I don't know if you have money to spare but that tank isn't too small for a lone granulosus and you can keep a fair number of colorful Tanganyikan or even Malawian fish with this species.
granny's are very intelligent fish! they have a true personality and can be trained in weeks to take food from your hand. one other add: it's a gorgeous fish!

and don't feel sorry for keeping only one; it's a highly territorial Synodontis and only in huge tanks can you keep more. they're not so nice to each other in smaller tanks. they tend to ignore other Syno's in general.

a whole different approach might be to toss out the heater and go for a "native" tank

The US is home to several very nice and smart tameable Ameiurus species.....Bullhead Catfishes. definitely "pettable handfeeders" wich react to you approaching the tank.

now once there even was a researcher who trained two of these (a pair) with sound (!!), and the result was that the catfishes recognized their name, proving that the hearing abilities of Ictalurids are indeed very well developed.....I remember the names being Adam and Eve and that Eve's supposedly was a lot smarter than Adam.
but I couldn't get the name of the researcher if you put me to the torch.

traing Ictalurids as pets might be very rewarding.

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 30 Apr 2007, 19:49

sidguppy wrote:unlike Phractocephalus

Now that is one of the biggest urban myths ....
There are no issues with keeping a few RTC's together as long as you have enough water.

For 99% of people the issue is they don't have enough water for one.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 01 May 2007, 09:15

most of the time only when they're getting mature; they're fiercely territorial when smaller; you'd need whopping big tanks for halfgrown groups, even bigger than those for fully growns, due to agression.

I've seen groups of these....in zoo-tanks! tanks that were 4-5 meters long or even 10-12 meter long bassins with a frontwindow.
but then we're not talking about the aquariumhobby but about zoo-keeping wich is a whole different ballgame.

Also: even in those zoo-tanks, most of the big cats show healed wounds or missing finparts that have happened by territorial fights. it's very rare to see more than 1 Phractocephalus in such a tank without any scar, bitemark or missing finpart.

IN THE HOME-AQUARIUM Phractocephalus cannot be kept in a group, whereas Pimelodus can.

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 01 May 2007, 10:19

I guess I'm a good zookeeper then because my 2 are in a lot of water and never bother each other.
I have never seen a aggressive or territorial incident between RTC's. Sure I've seen them eat many smaller fish but never seen anything like a fight or squabble between 2 RTC's of a similar size.
As I've said many times previously there are many myths about RTC's that are far from facts but simply products of people's experiences keeping them in too little water.

Red Tailed Catfish - Phractocephalus

RTC

Re: RTC

RTC

RTC