Please help sexing L204

jp_verkade · Post by **jp_verkade** » 26 Jan 2007, 08:16

Hi everybody,

As this is my first post I will introduce myself shortly. My name is Jean Paul Verkade and I am from the Netherlands. I have been keeping fish for quite a long time now, mainly keeping dwarf cichlids such as apistogramma. Since a year or two my interested has shifted slowly to (small) pleco?s.

As I have now set up 3 additional aquariums with a surface of 100cm*40cm and acquired 3 L204 specimens yesterday I would like to take advantage of the extensive knowledge on this forum.

The first thing I need help on is sexing my three L204. I already have some suspicions about it myself (which doesn?t make me to happy

) but hopefully I am wrong. I know the pictures are not of the very best quality. If additional pictures are needed please inform and I will try to shoot better ones as soon as possible.

Could you please help me in sexing these three fish and also explain why you think it is this gender?

Thank you, Jean Paul

The three fish together
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/groupl204.jpg

Fish 1, photo 1, 2, and 3
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 1_pic1.jpg
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 1_pic2.jpg
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 1_pic3.jpg

Fish 2, photo 1 and 2
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 2_pic1.jpg
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 2_pic2.jpg

Fish 3, photo 1 and 2
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 3_pic1.jpg
http://www.aquaforum.nl/gallery/upload/ ... 3_pic2.jpg

Rantosa · Post by **Rantosa** » 26 Jan 2007, 08:54

fish #2 looks like a male and the other 2 look to be females.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 26 Jan 2007, 09:02

The first fish is probably male though i cant be sure.
The second definitely male and the third possibly female but i cant be sure for this too...
The reason i think fish 2 is male is beacause it has long "hairs" on the rear part of his body.The same goes for fish 1 but it has smaller "hair" which can be due to him being a submissive male.The 3 is in my opinion female beacause from what i see,she totaly lacks long "hairs".

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 26 Jan 2007, 10:04

I agree with Kostas, Fish 2 is _DEFINITELY_ male. The others could be either, and there's really little you can do at the moment, other than let the grow on a bit (or try to breed them and see what happens).

Number 3 is definitely the least hairy, but the pectoral fins look quite hairy, so I wouldn't put more than 5 pence on it being a female, really.

--
Mats

jp_verkade · Post by **jp_verkade** » 26 Jan 2007, 10:26

Thanks everybody,

I expected fish 2 being a male. I hoped (and still do) that fish 1 was (is) a female because 'she' is about 1 cm larger than the male and doesn't have as much hair as him. Fish 3 is some smaller than the other two and does have the least hear.

Are there no cluess based on the body shape?

@ Mats: they are in a 100*40*40 by themselves with a pretty strong current, wood and some holes. I will add additional oxygen within a couple of days, do regular water changes and feed them vegetables and tablets. I think that is pretty much I can do to try to breed them isn't it (and patience

)? But if they are all males I do not think that will help much

.

You say: try to breed them and see what happens: are there perhaps behavioural clues that can help determine a fish to be a male or a female. Or are you just referring to 'if they spawn, you know you have a female

'.
The one I am aware of is that female fish will never enter a cave (except for spawning).

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 26 Jan 2007, 10:36

Let's first make one thing clear: I've never kept L204, I'm going by my experiences with , which is a similar species, but it's NOT the same one [never mind the fact that if you have two of the same species, they may not behave the same!].

Females of P. maccus definitely hides in caves, no doubt at all - I see just as little of my females as I do of my male - if I know where to look, I can find one or two of the three I've got within a minute or two - finding all three usually involves wrecking the entire decor of the tank

[These fish have (I guess, from finding some non-bristlenose fry, and those are the only ones in that tank that have more than one of the same species) spawned in my tank, but I didn't really "make that happen"].

The tank-size seems about right. Keep the tank around 28-30'C and retain a fairly high conductivity (medium hard water), then drop temperature two or three degrees and conductivity using cool water changes with softened water (RO or DI). Keep temperature down for several days, start feeding more protein and do big water changes several times a week, maintaining a low conductivity.

If you have all males, I expect them to fight - possibly even to death, if you're not watching them carefully! But I was more thinking along the lines of hairyness developing further on the males...

--
Mats

jp_verkade · Post by **jp_verkade** » 26 Jan 2007, 10:58

Mats, thank you for your detailed reply.

I will certainly stick to this formula once they are settled and perhaps have grown a cm or two. Medium hard water is no problem (straight from the tap

). Soft water is more difficult as I do not have a RO unit (maybe I can try to collect rainwater).

Do you expect the (male) fish to become more aggresive once you follow this procedure? The fish were kept in the LFS for at least 9 months in a small tank (about 40cm*40cm*30cm (height)) without a lot of aggression (at least when I watched them) and they only have some minor damage on their tail fin and pectoral fins.

About the lines of hairyness: will they only grow with age or also when they feel like mating (by following the stated procedure)?

Thanks Jean Paul

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 26 Jan 2007, 11:17

From what I understand, the hairyness will depend on status in the group as well as the general "sexyness" of the fish.

Unfortunately, the behaviour in a LFS tank and that in a bigger, more roomy surrounding "at home" is often different - particularly as LFS often don't have ANY caves for the fish, so the fish don't feel that they can breed anyways...

It's good that they have been in the LFS for a long time, at least you know that they are not likely to be "just flown in and very stressed and undernourished".

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 26 Jan 2007, 14:39

I believe fishes 1 and 2 are males and 3 is a female.
I have 8 adult L204 and I only have maybe 2 females so you did better than me.
One thing about their behavior( my group) is that they have not once entered any of the caves I have provided for them. They have a much greater affinity for hanging on or hiding within the bogwood. I have a feeling that hollowed out driftwood would be their preferred spawning site but I am only theorizing this. This may change should they try to spawn but so far they remain mainly in the open. These are all large adults and for a pleco they fight very little and never seriously. That has not been my experience with many other species where death has resulted from fight caused injuries.
I don't make any claims of expertise regarding L204 except that I like them and they go nuts over earthworm pellet food.

Zohar · Post by **Zohar** » 26 Jan 2007, 20:40

I would also say the first two are males and the last one female.

I have six of them at similar sizes (sub 9cm SL) for almost a year now, and one of the males started recently to show much more hairs, so we don't need to wait till 11cm to sex them. It is a goog news for me, hopefully they will breed in the coming months.

Apistomaster, I do see them getting more intersted in caves in the last weeks. But in general your comments are very valid also in my tank.

I lower the TDS to ~300 and hope to get it to 250 and for good news...

Zohar