What is wrong with my Synodontis eupterus?

[texasdawn]

I have a Synodontis eupterus catfish that is about 3.5 years old, and about 7 inches. It's first two years were spent in an ill-cared for 75 gallon tank with a mismatched collection of fish. I took possession of the tank and fish about 1.5 years ago. Since shortly after that time, the catfish has been alone in the 75 gallon, with weekly 50% water changes, and a varied diet. We don't really see him much. We see him out and about in the evenings, if I have the light off. But he's very shy in the daytime, or if there is movement near his tank.

A few months ago, (maybe 5 or 6) I noticed that he was starting to turn white in a line along his lateral line. Now it has spread to his face, which is now almost completely white. I thought maybe his caves ... formed by rocks ... were getting to small for him causing him to rub against the rocks because he has grown a noticable bit since I got him. Then recently when I cleaned the tank, I noticed that one of the rocks had fallen over, so I took that as a hint to redo his tank. Over the next week, I got a piece of driftwood I already had here, collected some petrified rock from a friend, and got the gift of a large chunk of jade.

Then I enlarged his cave, gave him the bigger peice of driftwood, which I've piled the rocks on for now to hold it down.

That evening, during the catfish's active time, he came out more than usual because he had to check out all his new rocks, wood and caves. I noticed first that one of his pectoral fins is shorter than the other, then I noticed some of his tail fin is missing as well.

I suppose this could have happened when that one rock fell. But, I'm wondering if the turning white in combination with the fin problems is a sign of bad news? There are not other fish in there, so the fins aren't being nipped. The tank readings are always 0, 0 and 5, because he's the only fish in there, and I do the weekly WC's. The cat is eating well, like always. Is she or he sick? What should I do?

Here is the best picture I could get, but it doesn't really show the fin problem:


I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,
Dawn

[Silurus]

Did you check the pH?

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422

[texasdawn]

My water here is "liquid rock." It comes out of the tap about 8.7, and settles to about 8.4 or so in the tanks. I do not alter it in any way, but rather try to find fish that will live in the high PH.

[Silurus]

Given that S. eupterus are not naturally found in water with such a high pH, it is equally likely that the high pH is the root of the problem.

[naturalart]

Sounds like you love your fish so heres my 2 cents.It looks like your fish has Hexamita but I'm not sure. S. eupterus is found in east African river environments. I would say 1) lower its ph to the 6-7's range,2) darken its tank with more driftwood and natural river gravel, not the colored stuff which when you scratch it it turns white. 3) more frozen and live food.

Also, if you ever get the fish better,I've found S. eupterus does better with other fish around, get it another eupterus buddy or maybe some none nipping tetras or barbs.

[texasdawn]

Thanks for the replies!

I have googled hole in the head disease, but it doesn't seem to be the problem. There are no holes, no sores, no abrasions, just lack of color in the areas. No lethargy, no loss of appetite. The fish eats very well, is still growing, and is active. In fact, since I redid his tank with more driftwood and more rock caves, he is even more active than before. He already has, has always had, natural gravel, even before I purchased the tank and fish. I am going to check to see if the driftwood has lowered the PH, but it may not have been in the tank long enough yet, less than a week. His diet is good and varied, not much live food, I'll work on that. Lots of frozen food, fresh veggies, good flake foods. He has a good appetite, eats well and is not a picky eater.

I plan to move him into another tank, maybe with some rock kribs when I get that tank set up. The tank he is in now is going to be used for a local tank with wild caught fish from the lake a mile or so from here. I don't think he'll fit well in that tank. I have not researched yet if he'll do well with the rock kribs, if he won't, I'll set him up in his own tank somewhere and try to get him a friend like him. I just don't want to stress him with a move or chance contaminating other fish until I know what, if anything, is wrong with him.

His total lack of symptoms other than loss of color is what's really stumping me.

[xilef]

Hi, I,m Felix(Indonesia)
As I see your pic, I,ve suggestion for treatment in external, U can use metilen blue.My syno like that too.

[texasdawn]

Hi, I,m Felix(Indonesia)
As I see your pic, I,ve suggestion for treatment in external, U can use metilen blue.My syno like that too.

Hi xilef, thanks for the answer. I am trying to google this as I've not heard of it before. Do you mean Methylene Blue, which is an anti-fungal treatment? That is the closest I can find to your spelling.

If that is what you mean, would any anti-fungal work? I have some Aquarium Pharmeceutical's Liquid Fungus Cure on hand. On the box it says it contains 22mg neurtoflavine and Povidor.e/colloid mixture.

I can also get Quick Cure easily where I live. If neither of those will work though, I can get Methylene Blue next time I drive to the city.

Thanks!
Dawn

[MatsP]

Methylene blue is almost certainly what Felix is talking about - I know that it's sometimes hard to spell chemical compounds in foreign languages, and I'm sure that it's not written the same in the Indonesian native language as in English.

Different types of antifungals have different effect on different illness, so it's not as straightforward as "Any antifungal will work" - I'm not saying that you need a particular one in this case, just that they operate in different ways, so one may work for 6 different infections, another works for 7, and another works for 15, out of the twenty three types that exist [as an example - I'm sure there's more than twentythree fungal infections out there].

--
Mats

[texasdawn]

Methylene blue is almost certainly what Felix is talking about - I know that it's sometimes hard to spell chemical compounds in foreign languages, and I'm sure that it's not written the same in the Indonesian native language as in English.

Different types of antifungals have different effect on different illness, so it's not as straightforward as "Any antifungal will work" - I'm not saying that you need a particular one in this case, just that they operate in different ways, so one may work for 6 different infections, another works for 7, and another works for 15, out of the twenty three types that exist [as an example - I'm sure there's more than twentythree fungal infections out there].

--
Mats

Thanks Mat! Yes, I understand, I have big trouble spelling these chemicals too! That's why I wanted to make sure I had the right stuff and wasn't confused myself.

Ok, well, I will stick with the specific stuff that xilef recommends since it works with his/her syno. I found I can order it online and get it faster than waiting til the next time I drive to the city.

Here's hoping it works! My syno seems to really like the tank rearranging I've done. He is very active and playful, so that must be a good sign.

Dawn

[M@RS]

Hi did you manage to cure him?

I had a similar catfish, but he outgrew my tank. The fish trippled in size in 4 months.

They like having plants in the tank, mine liked to hide in them.

[texasdawn]

M@rs, while the fish is not cured, it is showing improvement. Following some advice I got, I began doing smaller water changes. I was doing 50% once a week, now I do about 25%. During this time frame, my husband was seriously injured in an accident, so it became 25% about every 10 days instead of once a week. I also switched from "Start Right" to "Prime" which binds ammonia differently, or something.

Now the color is coming back to the fish. There are places along it's sides where the color is normal, and the color is returning to it's face as well. It is a slow process. It took over a year to turn white like this, so I imagine turning back to normal will take some time as well.

I also added 6 Maingano to the tank, and the catfish is now out and about much more often. The silly catfish will even swim along with the maingano as if it is part of their school. It is obvious if you watch that the catfish is "happy" to have other fish sharing the tank.

Thank you for your concern, and thanks everyone for the advice I got here. I hope the cat continues to do well and I can then post a picture of it looking beautiful.

[M@RS]

That's wonderful news.

Naked catfish (not having scales) means they are more sensitive to certain chemicals & medications.

Hope he makes a full recovery!

[MatsP]

M@rs, while the fish is not cured, it is showing improvement. Following some advice I got, I began doing smaller water changes. I was doing 50% once a week, now I do about 25%. During this time frame, my husband was seriously injured in an accident, so it became 25% about every 10 days instead of once a week. I also switched from "Start Right" to "Prime" which binds ammonia differently, or something.

Whilst I would recommend using one of those chemicals, I would also say that it's primary purpose is to rid the water of chlorine, rather than bind ammonia. In an established, healthy tank, there should be zero ammonia.

I personally use StressCoat, which is a similar product. Prime should be fine tho'.

--
Mats

[texasdawn]

M@rs, thank you!

MatsP, yes, I understand that is what they are for, I use them only when doing water changes. It is an established tank, it is cycled, the readings are ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate 10. (Used to be 5 until I added the other 6 fish, and now do smaller less frequent water changes) I will have to ask for the explaination again about how prime works better for our local water. It was explained to me by a local person who has been keeping fish much longer than I have. She explained that there is some trouble with our water that Prime helps, but start right doesn't. I will see her today and ask again. It was all very technical and I couldn't write it down while she was telling me before. I'll do better this time.

I never put any other chemicals in a tank unless it is a hospital tank and I'm using some sort of medication.

[Aura]

Texasdawn, are you saying that the smaller water changes have been helping your fish to improve? Or did you add any of the medications mentioned at some point?

My eupterus looks like it has the same thing starting. It behaves normally and doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all, but I don't want anything to happen to it.

Did yours look like this when it first started?

[texasdawn]

Hi Aura, what a couple of beauties you have there!

Answering your last question first, yes that is what it looked like when it first started.

The only medication I ended up using was melafix to help with the shredded fins, which worked. As for the parts that were turning white, I am just doing smaller water changes, and switched from Start Right to Prime.

As for the smaller water changes, I got this advice from another board:

"Just a thought here, don't know much about it, but I'll pass on what I've read recently.
There was a thread on the loach forum regarding clown loach 'freckles' or black spots. Turns out that it seemed to be related to changing Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) levels after large water changes. Do you have any way to test for that? Changing 50% of the water at a time will almost certainly have an effect of TDS levels, I'd think...
The color change on your cat is the reverse of what was seen in the clowns, but they were eating/behaving normally, and when the large water changes stopped the spots went away. Is the white area totally flat, or does it seem like the skin on the cat has been removed? Could it be just a pigment change, or does it seem that the skin itself has changed in either texture or composition?"

So, following that, I started doing smaller water changes. At that time, the cat was the only fish in the tank, so I did not need to be concerned with high nitrates. Now there are 6 maingano juvies in there, but they are still not making a dent in the nitrates. The catfish has been more active since adding the other fish, he or she seems to enjoy playing with the maingano.

I switched to Prime after a conversation with a local fish keeper here in my small town. I wish I could remember the details of why she uses Prime over Start right, but it had something to do with how Prime binds some of the things found in our water here. I will try to remember to ask her, but I don't get to speak to her very often. At the time I couldn't make any notes, and my memory is not as good as it once was.

My fish really appears to be slowly turning back to normal. That line you see on your fish? Part of it in the middle is now totally gone on my fish. S/he is also getting the color back in the face. I do not know if it was
a) adding the other fish
b) changing to Prime
c) doing smaller water changes
or even
d) just the luck of the draw.

This is all probably not much help to you, but it's all I have....

[Aura]

It's actually a big help, just knowing that yours is recovering from the way it looked in that picture. (I think it looks kind of cool that way - like a Halloween costume. )

I will try the smaller water changes to see if that does anything to help and go from there.

Thanks for the info.

[texasdawn]

Please keep me posted on how it goes, I'd really like to hear. Keep in mind that it was probably a month or so before I began to see improvement.

[Aura]

Please keep me posted on how it goes

I'll do that, and thanks again.

[edikpok]

Are there any updates on the whiteness of these beautiful Featherfin Syno's? any working treatment?

[texasdawn]

edikpok,

Reducing the water change amount and switching to Prime as mentioned before is all I have done so far. That did seem to help right away, as some of the white on the sides of the fish went away. However, there has been no real change since then.

Last week, I had to move the contents of that tank to other tanks. The catfish did not take the move well, and I thought it was not going to make it. However, after several days, it did perk up and I no longer fear death.

Only time will tell if being in a different tank with different rocks and larger caves will help.

Thank you for your concern.

[edikpok]

Thanks for your update!
The thing is that I have a featherfin Syno that is somewhat similar to the one in the first photo of this thread. Although, he is not as white as the one in the photo - he has a bit of white there and white dots along the lateral line. As for the prime, I already use it....
I wonder whether the Mathylene Blue could help?
Perhaps it is an age thing?

[texasdawn]

I don't know if it would help as I was reluctant to try it. If you do try it, I would love to hear the results. How old is your fish? Mine is about 4 years old, I'm guessing. The white spots did start out very slow, a few showing on the fish's sides, then eventually growing more and more and covering the cat's face. This process took over a year. Other than the white, the cat seems fine, eats well, is active and playful, except during the few days just after the move. The move was only a week ago, so it is too soon to tell if it will make more or less white, or if it will stay the same.

[edikpok]

I am not sure I am going to try it out but I have read somewhere that addition of vitamines may help so I will try that. Take a look at the disease called Head and Lateral Line Erosion. I think it may be related to that!

[texasdawn]

Ok, thanks for that info, I shall google it.

Please keep me posted on how your fish does.

[Aura]

Texasdawn, I hope yours will do okay with the moving of tanks.

Mine is still pretty much the same from what I can tell. I did reduce the amount of water changed, but had to increase the frequency of the changes because of climbing nitrates. It is doing well and growing and acting completely normal, so I just don't know what to think. I've only had this fish for about a year and it was quite small when I got it, so I don't think it's age related at all.

Back around mid-December, we had a power outage that lasted 43 hours. The tank temp dropped down to 55 degrees and they survived that just fine. They are a lot tougher than I would have thought!

Edikpok, good luck with yours and I'd also be interested to know how it responds to any treatments that you try.

[edikpok]

I started treating my tank with Hex-A-Mit. I will let you know how it works. It is used against hole in the head disease

[edikpok]

So I ended up adding the Hex-A-Mit treatment at a lower dossage and salt in the concentration of 1 spoon of Kosher salt per 10 gals of water. I know these are low concentrations but I didn't want to stress the scaless syno too much. I also performed a half tank water change and took out the carbon filter. The syno seems to be doing better-->swims much more than before and responds better to food. The white marks, however, are still therewith no real change.

[edikpok]

So I removed the carbon filter out of myfiltration system and have performed a 30% water change once a week and believe it or not - the syno is doing MUCH better! Eats, swims and the white crap is slowly disappearing!