Tanganyikan Community Tank

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 17 Apr 2003, 09:21

What do you think about the idea of a tank with S. multipunctatus and S. petricola. To my opinion it should work because both come from Lake Tanganyika.
Has anybody of you spawned s. multi? Have you used a C*****d as hostfish? Is it possible to spawn multis without a host fish?

Post by **Silurus** » 17 Apr 2003, 10:35

Have you read the Shane's World article on breeding S. multipunctatus? I have an article by Jim Robinson on the non-cuckoo spawning of S. multipunctatus somewhere, but no one else seems to have reported a non-cuckoo spawning of this species.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 17 Apr 2003, 11:46

And what about the two Synos? Fit they together?

Post by **Rusty** » 17 Apr 2003, 14:51

They'll fit together fine.

We've spawned S. multipunctatus without a host. The fish were fed extremely heavily with live foods just prior to the spawning. The spawning group consisted of two females and one male, all at about 10 cm.

Rusty

Post by **Dinyar** » 17 Apr 2003, 15:31

Silurus wrote:I have an article by Jim Robinson on the non-cuckoo spawning of S. multipunctatus somewhere, but no one else seems to have reported a non-cuckoo spawning of this species.

Dinyar and Rusty have, on this very site.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 17 Apr 2003, 17:07

I've kept them too; still have petricola's and others, all in a Tang tank.
A few things you should know:
Synodontis multipunctatus is much more boisterous, bigger and daily active than petricola. If your tank is too crowded or too small, you might not see the petricola's very much. Sometimes they can get "intimidated" by the big multi's.
The best way IMO is to keep a relatively small group of the bigger ones (multi's) say 4-5 or so, and a bigger number of the smaller petricola's. (6+).

But apart from that, they'll do fine.

It's very difficult to breed them with a Tanganyikan host in captivity; native cichlids are indeed familiar with the wily ways of the multi.Most often when breeding with a host is recorded, Victorian or Malawian Haps are used.
As mentioned in one of the articles on this site; a very good host (and peaceful as well as beautiful) is Placidochromis electra from Malawi.
They should be big enough, or you have the nasty task of wedging small female-cichlids' mouths open with a toothpick to extrude spiny fry, in order to save both baby syno and female host....(wich happens if you use too small Astatotilapia burtoni's for example)
The species that breeds the largest number of multipunctatus is Ctenochromis horei.

A beautiful fish, but one with a fierce character, and they get up to 7" too. Not many Tangs can be combined with this one, unless your tank is 130G and up, and even then; I wouldn't keep Ctenochromis with Featherfins, Sandcichlids or Shellbrooders. They can easily eat fish up to 3-4 cm, and fragile or longfinned species can be molested.
The males are rowdy so the females should outnumber them by at least 2-1; better 3-1.

If you want to breed Synodontis "petricola dwarf" with a host, you can use Altolaprologus calvus or A compressiceps. Their females need a big shell too, and S petricola sometimes dumps their eggs in with the broodcaring cichlid. You can get a nice surprise by seeing tiny (1/2") baby petricola's appearing in the tank after the calvus stopped blocking the shell.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 17 Apr 2003, 20:29

How big should a tank be to put in petricola and multupunctatus? how big for just one species?

Post by **Dinyar** » 17 Apr 2003, 23:36

Say 150 liters for six of each species. In the US, there is a size called a "40 gallon breeder", which is an almost square tank that works well.

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 18 Apr 2003, 03:04

SG_Eurystomus wrote: The species that breeds the largest number of multipunctatus is Ctenochromis horei.

A beautiful fish, but one with a fierce character, and they get up to 7" too. Not many Tangs can be combined with this one, unless your tank is 130G and up, and even then; I wouldn't keep Ctenochromis with Featherfins, Sandcichlids or Shellbrooders. They can easily eat fish up to 3-4 cm, and fragile or longfinned species can be molested.
The males are rowdy so the females should outnumber them by at least 2-1; better 3-1.

Today we took two (1M, 1F) new Ctenochromis horei out of quarantine and introduced them to our 125 gallon Tanganyika tank, which contained an established group of four C. horei. Within a few hours, the alpha male had torn the newly introduced male to shreds, which were then prompltly devoured by the S. multipunctatus! Quite a gross but amazing sight! I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't seen it myself.

Sid, do you know how to sex these fish reliably? I used to think only the males have egg spots, but as they grow bigger, it seems they ALL get egg spots. You are certainly right when you say that they are beautiful but fierce fish. However, I've never seen them display aggression except among themselves.

Dinyar

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 18 Apr 2003, 08:08

Thanks Dinyar for the good news. My new tank has 160 litres. Should I also put in some c*****ds? And how should I decorate it? Plants, pipes, roots or rocks?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 18 Apr 2003, 14:57

Ctenochromis are not easily sexed when juveniles or subadults. But adult males have a lot more color (especially on the face) than adult females. Females lack most of the black in the face, and their fins are shorter, especially the ventral fins. Eggspots aren't a good thing to separate sexes with many Haps, but in general the males' eggspots are bigger, brighter and more in number.

Sorry to state it, Dinyar, but adding a male to an already established group wich contains a male wan't exactly smart!

This was bound to go wrong with even mild species....
The only way one can add fish to a group is RE-ARRANGE the tank!!
This way you break the current territories apart and all fishes have equal chances of setting up new ones.

SynoPetri; what Dinyar means is 160 liters for ONE species; you need at least a 300 liter tank to keep both petricola and multi's in one tank.
Dinyars' tanks are very crowded (sorry Dinyar, but they ARE); I'd keep a single species of Syno's in a 150 liter, and go for 6 or so "petricola dwarfs" if I were you.
A 150 liters is WAY too small for Synodontis multipunctatus! this is a species that reaches at least 7" (adult females can reach 9", sometimes more), and a group is at least 5 or so. Even a speciestank with 5 adult Synodontis multipunctatus should be bigger than that; 250 liters is more like it.

Decorations for Tangs can include several kinds of rockwork, depending on taste. Many cats -especially smaller ones -really like holey rock, I'm more of a flagstone/slate-man myself.
Plants are fine, but go easy on them; too many plants and they will lower the hardiness and pH; wich is bad in a Rifttank (good in a riverine, nut we're talking Rift, here)
Wood should be avoided ina Riftlake setup; only really big tanks, with loads of lime, crushed shells in the filters and a good buffering quality can contain wood, but it's far easier and better to do without.
Wood screws up Tanganyika- or Malawi-waterparameters.

Adding cichlids depends on your experience with them, and your setup; is it a densely packed rocky tank, or an open structured one? what is used for substrate; gravel or sand? Wich colors or behaviour do you like (cave- or mouthbrooders; shoalers or pairs etc)
Easy to keep Tanganyikan cichlids (that aren't too aggressive, and don't take over the tank when breeding) include:
-Aulonocranus dewindti (gravelpit-building harum mouthbrooder)
-Julidochromis transcriptus Gombi (small pairbonding cavebrooder)
-Neolamprologus leleupi (pairbonding cavebrooder)
-Neolamprologus cylindricus (pairbonding cavebrooder)
-Neolamprologus pulcher Daffodil (colonial cavebrooder; the only well behaved "Brichardi-related")
-Lamprologus multifasciatus (shellbrooder, colonial fish!)
-Lamprologus ocellatus (shellbrooder, pairs or small harums)
-Lamprologus caudopunctatus (pairbonding & cavedigging)
-Altolamprologus calvus (cave-, shellbrooder)
-Altolamprologus compressiceps (cave-, shellbrooder)
-Cyprichromis leptosoma Isanga (open water shoaling mouthbrooder)
-Cyprichromis leptosoma Utinta (open water shoaling mouthbrooder)
-Xenotilapia ornatipinnis (sanddwelling shoaling mouthbrooder)

These species should NOT be kept ALL together!
The best way is to choose: cylindricus OR leleupi; calvus OR compressiceps, ocellatus OR multifasciatus etc. Closely related varieties should not be kept in one tank (Utinta and Isanga are the same species; hybrids can occur, wich is bad)

Post by **Dinyar** » 18 Apr 2003, 17:44

Sid,

You have way more experience with cîchlids than I do. For example, you're probably right that I should have known not to add a new male C. horei to an established group. Not that re-arranging the rocks would have helped in this case. There are lots of rocks in the tank, but they are all infested with catfish. The C. horei don't go near them, they swim in open water. How do you rearrange open water?

As for your comments on the tank size required for keeping S. multipunctatus and S. petricola together, if you want to give them a really spacious tank, just leave them in the lake!

Anything less is sub-optimal. But prior to getting our 125 galllon, we kept 4 multis, 4 petris and 3 pollis in a 40 gallon breeder (with no other fish, lots of rocks and Vallisneria), and not only did the fish do fine, the multis even spawned (without a cichlid host). So there!

Dinyar

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 18 Apr 2003, 18:03

Thanks guys! But an other question. Could the speed of growing be a problem? I mean S. multupunctatus grows much faster than S. petricola. I would buy the fish with a lench of about 1,5 to 2 cm.

Post by **Dinyar** » 18 Apr 2003, 21:58

Those would still be fry, not even juveniles. Yes, you might have a problem, as the petri fry grow much more slowly than the multi fry do, and obviously, since you're talking about F1 fish, the petris you will be getting will be dwarf petris, which are small to begin with.

Plus fish that small are more sensitive and harder to keep alive than adults.

I'd get bigger fish, if I were you.

Dinyar

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 18 Apr 2003, 23:08

This was my first thought too.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 19 Apr 2003, 10:05

SynoPetri, are we still talking about a true Tanganyikan community tank, or an All-Catfish setup?
Because these two are miles apart, you know.

I wouldn't dare to combine both cichlids and a shoal of 8" catfishes in a tank about a meter long or so.

Dinyar; about the "open water territory"; cichlids are VISUALLY orientated fish, wich means they use the furniture/surroundings as a recognition point in their tank/lake etc. So also for none-cavedwellers; changing the setup works, because you change the "view".
It works with all kinds of open water dwellers too; Tropheus, Featherfins, Ctenochromis, Cyprichromis etc. Very nasty to moderately difficult fish when you introduce new speciesmembers UNLESS you re-arrange the tank.
With Ctenochromis it's nearly impossible anyway to keep more than one male in any tank shorter than 5 feet; and cichlidmales are a bit like Synodontis angelicus: One is The Boss, a group is Survivable Mayhem, but Two is Bad News.

two things:

As for your comments on the tank size required for keeping S. multipunctatus and S. petricola together, if you want to give them a really spacious tank, just leave them in the lake

Is this because IMO you put too many big fish in a too small tank, or an alibi to keep any number or size of fish in small tanks????

So there!

?????????
Did I step on someting or what?

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 19 Apr 2003, 10:15

What is a true Tanganyikan community tank for you? Only catfishes or also c*****ds? I mean the c*****ds would only be for the multis to spawn. Is it is possible to spawn them without a host, as Dinyar said, then I wouldn't put in c*****ds.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 19 Apr 2003, 19:21

Dinyar's got loads of Syno's, and he spawns them alright.

But with a community tank I indeed do refer to a Tanganyikan setup with cichlids, catfish, perhaps even eels or killi's.

Otherwise I would call it Tanganyikan catfishtank.

Although we're a catfish community here; the fact is that Cichlids rule the lake!
Compared to them, there are few catfish; 7 described syno-species and a few nondescribed species and varieties; 7 small Claroteids (Lophio's and Phyllonemus) and a similar number of big ones (Chrysichthys and the Giraffenose), a few big clariids, bagrids and a malapterurid.

But more than 400 species of cichlids and counting..... ranging from tiny shellbrooders and cavebrooders, to shoaling sandcichlids and Cyps, miniature barracuda-like carnivores, scale-eaters, big planteaters (Oreochromis and Petrochromis), small colorful planteaters (Tropheus), deepwaterfish down to 200 meters, mudeaters etc etc

Not to mention Puffers (1) , mormyrids (several), Polypterids (2), Lungfish (1) , Characins (more than a dozen) including two very dangerous big ones ( Tigerfish), Killi's (2),Barbs including very big ones (more than 50), Nile-perch species (lates, at least 4), sardines (2) and Spiny eels (at least 11).

So IMO a true Tanganyikan community should at least contain cichlids, catfish, probably barbs (although they're very hard to get, and most get big), a spiny eel or some killi's etc. But a few cichlid species at least.

But if the aim is breeding with the multies I would stick to Dinyars' scenario or forgo the Tanganyikan cichlids and go for Malawian Haps. MUCH easier!

Post by **Dinyar** » 19 Apr 2003, 21:13

SG_Eurystomus wrote:
As for your comments on the tank size required for keeping S. multipunctatus and S. petricola together, if you want to give them a really spacious tank, just leave them in the lake
Is this because IMO you put too many big fish in a too small tank, or an alibi to keep any number or size of fish in small tanks????

Hey, Holland (where you live) and Manhattan (where I live) are both little tanks crowded with lots of inhabitants! It can be done, it just takes more effort. Our tanks mirror our own habitabts: if you and I lived in Texas, we could both have huge tanks!

And for that matter, I gather that some of the prime real estate in Lake Tanganyika is so crowded with fish, it would make Manhattan at rush hour seem deserted!

I agree with Sid (on most things, actually; I just like roughing him up occasionally to keep him in his place

) that a Tanganyika community tank is more satisfying than a Tanganyika catfish only tank. But there are a couple of problems. First, a true Tang community is not the eaiest way to spawn Tang Synos. As Sid says, Malawi or Victoria Haps are an easier host (for multipunks, anyway), and even hostless spawning is easier than using Tang cichlids like Ctenochromis horei or Simochromis babaulti. AFAIK, there are no reports of AQUARIUM spawning using either of these hosts. (But that doesn't stop us from trying!)

The second problem with Tang communities is that just because fishes are from Lake Tang doesn't mean they belong to the same community. There are MANY different biotopes in Lake Tang, and fishes from these different biotopes cannot be easily combined. So you need to proceed with care, read up and get expert advice, and accept the fact that even after "due diligence", you are going to lose some fish while experimenting. Synos are tough fish. I've kept a lot of them, and they readily survive the abuse I've subjected them to. By comparison, Tang cichlids, spiney eels, etc., seem much more temperamental. One minute they're killing each other, next minute they don't like this food and are starving to death, now it's too hot... They're always upset about something or the other!

Dinyar

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 20 Apr 2003, 10:17

You are right, Tanganyikan community tank maybe is the wrong expression. Tanganyikan catfish spawning tank would fit better.
The thing with the c*****ds was only because of the multis as already said. If not neccesary I wouldn't put in c*****ds!

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 20 Apr 2003, 19:37

Hey guys, another question. Dinyar said that he had S. petricola, S. multupunctatus and S. polli, all in one tank. Couldn't oit be that hybrids are the result?

Post by **Dinyar** » 20 Apr 2003, 21:59

The short answer is "no".

The only Syno hybrids I'm aware of were intentionally created (with the help of hormone injection, etc.)

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 21 Apr 2003, 10:20

I'll second that.

I wouldn't put Polli II (or polli white, or polli Zambia) inn one tank with the true polli , if breeding is the aim.

Or two 'species' or varieties of S multipunctatus, or two forms of petricola (like Burundi petricola and petricola dwarfs in one tank)

In a mixed setup, they might spawn, but usually all the eggs or fry are quickly eaten by all the syno's around.
So if you just want to keep many Tang syno's together without aiming on breeding them, it's OK.
But if fry was raised from such a tank, you might have hybrids, chances are small; but it could happen.
Best way to stick to one petricola species, one 'polli' species, one multipunctatus species etc etc etc.
Chances of hybrids between those are nil,zip.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 21 Apr 2003, 12:02

But a tank of petricola and multipunctatus wouldn't be a problem?

Post by **Dinyar** » 21 Apr 2003, 15:06

Short answer: no

Long answer: Also no

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 21 Apr 2003, 19:38

@ Dinyar
Have you got photos of your tank with petricola, multipunctatus and polli?

@ Dinyar and SG_Eurystomus
Thanks very much for your help!

Post by **Rusty** » 22 Apr 2003, 18:48

Here is a shot of the tank from afar:

If you look in the CateLog, there are several shots of the individual fish in the tank.

Rusty

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 22 Apr 2003, 19:02

Thanks Rusty! How many litres has the tank? Is it Dinyars tank with 40 gallons?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 22 Apr 2003, 19:03

I can see two syno's from here!
one in the left cave, another under the driftwood.
a VERY nice tank, btw!
Can you give some details; tanksize, specieslist, number of fishes per species, etc
the whole package, to satisfy my drooling demand of knowledge, you know

Post by **Rusty** » 22 Apr 2003, 20:16

That is a 475 L tank (the 40 gallon tank now houses the riverine Synos). The picture is a little old. The three synos you can see in the picture are S eupterus, B batensoda and an S angelicus, most of whom have been moved out. Currently in the tank are:

1 Synodontis brichardi
1 Synodontis soloni
1 Synodontis angelicus
1 Synodontis granulosus
6 Synodontis multipunctatus
5 Synodontis petricola
2 Synodontis petricola dwarf
2 Synodontis cf. petricola
5 Synodontis polli
3 Synodontis dhonti
2 Synodontis tanganaicae?
4 Lophiobagrus cyclurus
5 Phyllonemus typus
1 Caecomastacembalus plagiostomus
1 Aethiomastacembalus ellipsifer
1 Lobochilotes labiatus
3 Altolamprologus compressiceps
5 Ctenochromis horei

The tank is filtered with an Eheim 2026 and a Fluval 403. pH is around 7.8.

Rusty